Although I haven't been active for quite some time, I used to be very active in #fpc, and just by coincidence happened to start seriously using pascal again just in time for this drama.

Joanna has always been very nice to me, but the way she is treating newcomers to the channel is incredibly perplexing and off-putting to me.

She basically tries to test anyone she doesn't recognize with pascal questions. (Print the negative numbers 1 through 10) , and if you're a complete newbie and unable to answer her questions (or unwilling, or just don't realize that you're being tested by a mod), she decides you're a bot, and nothing you can say or do will change that idea in her mind.

I haven't spoken to Steve here but clearly he's not a bot, and she apparently sincerely believes he is... She didn't ban him because she disagreed with him or didn't like something he did. *She sincerely believes that he is a computer program.*

Today, she decided someone else that I had been talking to previously was a computer program. According to her own screenshots (which she shouldn't be posting in the first place), she started interrogating him in private messages, and he refused to talk to her because she's a woman.

If she had kicked him out for being disruptive in the chat, fine. But he wasn't being at all disruptive. He barely had a chance to say anything once she showed up.

If she had kicked him out for being sexist in private messages... <shrug>... Okay ,fine.

But that's not why she kicked him out.

But she kicked him out because she believes he is a computer program.

As far as she is concerned, I and anyone else who believes these people are human beings have been tricked by the bots.

This is not a crazy evil moderator on a power trip. She is clearly a nice person and well intentioned... But for whatever reason, she is convinced that the channel is being continuously attacked by bots, and at least from my perspective, that does not appear to be the case.

Maybe it was attacked at some point, as she claims. I don't know.

But something is wrong here.

Try joining the channel under a new name when she's around, and observe how you are treated.

I can understand keeping bots off the channel, but it seems like there should be some easy way to test if you are a bot without annoying real humans. Why doesn’t she just send them an email or a text message if their conversation is not convincing or If they are someone who is on the FPC mailing list, then it’s super easy to confirm that just ask them what their email used on one of the FPC lists. If I do a google search for: james richters fpc-pascal I get all kinds of posts that I have made over the years from the archives.

The comment was made that lurkers are not allowed on the channel.. that is just dumb, if there are not lurkers, then the chances of someone being on who knows how to help with any give issue is much less. So the only people on the channel will be people with questions, and no one with answers. Also a LOT can be learned from other people’s questions. I learn SO much from the FPC-Pascal List.. things that I would never even think about.

I don’t know, I like the mailing lists, I didn’t even know there was an IRC channel…. Look… I learned about something I didn’t know about from what would be considered lurking if I was on IRC.

James Richters wrote

I can understand keeping bots off the channel, but it seems like there should be some easy way to test if you are a bot without annoying real humans. Why doesn’t she just send them an email or a text message if their conversation is not convincing or If they are someone who is on the FPC mailing list, then it’s super easy to confirm that just ask them what their email used on one of the FPC lists. If I do a google search for: james richters fpc-pascal I get all kinds of posts that I have made over the years from the archives.

Indeed - moderation should be driven by actions, not by suspicions.

The comment was made that lurkers are not allowed on the channel.. that is just dumb, if there are not lurkers, then the chances of someone being on who knows how to help with any give issue is much less. So the only people on the channel will be people with questions, and no one with answers. Also a LOT can be learned from other people’s questions. I learn SO much from the FPC-Pascal List.. things that I would never even think about.

That's exactly one of arguments I raised to Joanna, but she didn't seem to either understand or care (neither is good).

I don’t know, I like the mailing lists, I didn’t even know there was an IRC channel…. Look… I learned about something I didn’t know about from what would be considered lurking if I was on IRC.

Yep. I'll post an update regarding the FPC team decision and associated action tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

Tomas

Hello everybody,

As promised, I raised the topic of the #fpc irc channel in the FPC core team. The conclusion is that since the FPC core team has no control over this channel and we don't want to be associated with the moderation style there, we will change the information about this IRC channel on our WWW pages and in the Wiki. In particular, we'll mention that there are at least two IRC channels used by some people for discussing topics related to FPC, but that neither of these channels should be considered as an official one and that the FPC teams has no control over them.

Tomas

Tomas Hajny via fpc-other said on Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:15:41 +0200

Thanks!

Can you please not only say all the alternate channels exist, but say what they are, so people can flock to them? I know of #fpc-alt and ##fpc-alt, but I imagine there are others besides. My guess would be that as time goes by the bunch of us would decide on one semi-official and one offtopic channel to use.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

Indeed, that's what I meant. I intended to mention #fpc-alt and #fpc as the two IRC channels specifically. It seems that there's also #fpc-dev, but I have no clue on whether it's used, etc. I can mention ##fpc-alt as well if necessary - what's the associated irc:// URN of this channel?

Tomas

Hi everyone
I have helped nikolay moderate the #fpc channels for years since it had become unusable due to trolls back on freenode .

First I want to clarify regarding the #fpc channel rules
1. Lurkers - pascal programmers can lurk all they like. Strangers with unknown intentions cannot.
2. Purpose - the channel is for people who use and want to talk about creating projects with fpc and Lazarus Delphi programmers are also welcome 3.Pascal: people in channel are expected to have at least beginner level proficiency in pascal language so that they can understand what is happening and participate. People who don’t know pascal can visit #pascal and utilize the resources in topic.
4. Bots: bots are allowed only with permission from channel owners. This includes chatbots. 5.offtopic chat:When no technical discussions are happening, sensible pleasant off topic chat is both allowed and enjoyed. 6.Sincerity: channel members are expected to demonstrate sincerity and post questions that channel members were unable answer in forums or mailing lists if asked to. 7.Joining:the #fpc requires users to be logged into account to enter, however I can add your IP address to the invite list so that you can join without an account if you prefer. 8.Introduction: please tell me who are and how you found channel when you join. It makes my life a lot easier. I don’t want to accidentally ban you because of some misunderstanding.
9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People who engage in harassment will be shown the door.

I cordially invite all pascal programmers who are able to abide by these rules to join us

Come chat on IRC .. https://libera.chat/guides/
IRC.LIBERA.CHAT Ports [6667 plaintext ] or [6697 secure] channels #fpc #pascal

If anyone has any questions or concerns about irc please feel free to ask me. I can also be messaged in forums under name Joanna

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

Tomas Hajny via fpc-other said on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 00:33:41 +0200

I can mention ##fpc-alt as well if necessary - what's the associated irc:// URN of this channel?

I don't know anything about irc:// urns. What would I use to find out?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

Sorry, I don't know. You can find examples of these urns e.g. on the Wiki (https://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_IRC_channel).

Tomas

Why not? If they're just lurking, they're not impacting anyone.

8.Introduction: please tell me who are and how you found channel when you join. It makes my life a lot easier. I don’t want to accidentally ban you because of some misunderstanding.

This is literally none of your business. You banned me as "rude" when I said as much.

9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People who engage in harassment will be shown the door.

...or don't kowtow to the demands of the empress.

Check out the Unofficial Free Pascal Discord server here: https://discord.me/unofficialfreepascal

(Much Pascal, no interrogation.)

g.

I bet there could be people in these mailing lists that don’t even use pascal. It’s is understandable why someone who doesn’t use pascal could be offended about being asked to talk about what they are doing in pascal... People I know who like pascal don’t seem to have These hang ups.

If nobody knows the backstory about freenode, it was taken over and destroyed on purpose to get people off of irc and onto platforms that spy on users and monetize their data. Irc is one of the few platforms left on the Internet where there is no phone number or email required to talk.

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

geneb via fpc-other said on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)

Hi geneb,

Please pass this on to HSN, whom I assume is Joanna...

Trolls don't lurk, so why the antipathy for lurkers Joanna?

Also, I made tens of thousands of dollars with both Whitesmith Pascal and Turbo Pascal last century, but this century I just do Pascal every few months. So am I a Pascal programmer? If there's a Pascal aptitude test to qualify for #fpc, please point me to it so I can cram and pass the test.

Furthermore, if not answering your questions is a bannable offense, you should say so in the /topic. Not in a web page pointed to /topic, but in the /topic text itself. As a matter of fact, that topic should list all the bannable and kickable offenses, so we know you're not making up rules as you go or engaging in selective enforcement.

Also, as I remember (I can no longer access #fpc), there were many, many channel operators. Why should I pay attention to *one particular* chanop who interrogates me? If there's a bannable rule that I must answer a chanops questions, this should have been stated in /topic.

One more thing Joanna. Your reputation precedes you. I felt less likely to run afoul of the channel rules if I didn't respond to you, and more likely to run afoul of the channel rules if I engaged with you. But that's a moot point, because I was away from my desk, so I *couldn't* have responded to either your public or private questioning.

> 9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People who engage in > harassment will be shown the door. ...or don't kowtow to the demands of the empress.

I was not unfriendly. I harassed nobody. I already said why I didn't engage with you.

As far as friendly and helpful, how friendly were you, Joanna, by saying publicly that you couldn't coinhabit a channel with somebody who had written what I did on a *mailing list*? Joanna, you should unban everyone you've banned in the past 2 years, and then permanently step down from your chanop status. Your chanop activities are hurting the FPC project and the Pascal language itself by making it difficult to comfortably access IRC help for FPC. I'm "lurking" on the #C channel right now, nobody's interrogating or hassling me, and to tell the truth, C isn't that bad except you need to free all your allocations, take steps not to overrun any buffers, and initialize all your variables and pointers. Valgrind is a great help in this. Your chanop actions make the FPC alternatives start to look pretty good.

It could be said that my words in this post aren't friendly or helpful. Friendly, no. My words are a little harsh, which I think is called for by the situation, because they're the truth. Your words on #IRC and here are probably less friendly than mine. Helpful? If you unban everyone, step down as a chanop, and just enjoy the language you love, it will help everyone.

geneb, years ago I made a policy decision not to work with discord, but I'm now re-thinking that policy, in light of the fact that I can't currently get help on the IRC channel assumed by most to be the official FPC channel. I'd like everyone to know that there's now #fpc-alt for ontopic and ##fpc-alt for offtopic.

writeln('Give everyone a break and step down, Joanna.');

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

HSN via fpc-other said on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 15:03:45 +0000

Maybe people lurk because they want to *learn* FPC. Or maybe their Pascal skills are so low they need to ask questions and cannot prove their Pascal expertness.

Which is EXACTLY why I use IRC. Your actions (assuming HSN=='Joanna') push people away from IRC (and Pascal) just as much as trolls, insulters, political junkies and biggots do. So why don't you unban us all, and if **on #fpc** any of us starts insulting people or groups of people, or insulting FPC or Pascal, or going on and on about their wonderful vacation to the South of France or their ski trip in Colorado, you can warn them and if they persist kick or even ban them. But not for not answering your questions, or for not posting. Name me one other IRC channel that does that. Joanna, you have the power to end this whole mess right now just by revoking all the bans and using more reasonable moderation techniques in the future.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

HSN via fpc-other said on Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:03:51 +0000

By definition, lurkers are not damaging, regardless of their intentions.

2. Purpose - the channel is for people who

use and want to talk about creating projects with fpc and Lazarus Delphi programmers are also welcome

That's reasonable.

3.Pascal: people in channel are

expected to have at least beginner level proficiency in pascal language so that they can understand what is happening and participate. People who don’t know pascal can visit #pascal and utilize the resources in topic.

Here we have to define beginner level proficiency. Somebody in their second week of a Pascal class? Somebody who is pretty good with procedural Pascal but iffy about Pascal OOP and all these millions of new flags and types?

Also, there are only 17 people on #pascal, which makes getting questions answered in a reasonable time much less probable.

4. Bots: bots are allowed only with

permission from channel owners. This includes chatbots.

Completely understandable, but somebody should be assumed carbon based until proven bot. And heck, if the bot is ontopic and helpful, what's the difference?

5.offtopic

chat:When no technical discussions are happening, sensible pleasant off topic chat is both allowed and enjoyed.

Sounds good to me.

6.Sincerity: channel

members are expected to demonstrate sincerity and post questions that channel members were unable answer in forums or mailing lists if asked to.

Thanks for letting us know. I often wait 2 days and then repost if no answer. I'll try to remember not to do that if I'm ever allowed back on #fpc.

7.Joining:the #fpc requires users to be logged into account to

enter,

Do you mean logged into libera.chat? If so, of course.

however I can add your IP address to the invite list so that you can join without an account if you prefer.

8.Introduction: please

tell me who are and how you found channel when you join. It makes my life a lot easier.

Unfortunately, I found the channel via the thread on the moderation of #fpc. I love IRC, and if this mess ever gets fixed I'd love to post short, simple FPC questions on IRC, saving the more complicated ones for email. On most IRC channels, I also help people when I know answers or next steps.

Here we have to define rude. On the mailing list I admin, we don't allow personal insults, insults to groups of people, insults to Linux (after all, it's a Linux group mailing list), and long and frequent occurrences of posts obviously intended to start arguments. So far, since 2004, I've banned three people, issued less than 10 warnings, and once I threw the whole list under moderation to stop a rapidly escalating flame war.

I think as a moderator you also have a responsibility to behave in a way that doesn't make people feel like they're walking on eggshells and worry that a question or an answer might get them reprimanded or banned.

I cordially invite all pascal programmers who are able to abide by these rules to join us

That's me, and in my opinion all the people in this thread who have been banned from #fpc. Why don't you unban us all and we can all start over?

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

HSN wrote

If nobody knows the backstory about freenode, it was taken over and destroyed on purpose to get people off of irc and onto platforms that spy on users and monetize their data.

This is utter nonsense.

g.

Dear fpc-other list members,

I've only just now subscribed to this list and had to reconstruct a number of headers from pipermail-provided HTML - nevertheless, I hope this message will slot into the proper thread concerning IRC channel woes.

Even though similar complaints on the official Lazarus forums have not led to a noticeable outcome for the IRC channels concerned there, I would like to direct your attention to my personal attempt at raising this issue there earlier this year:

https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,62584.0.html

Lazarus forum moderators have banned all discussion involving IRC on their platform as the (somewhat understandable) consequence of a number of users independently raising this issue during recent months.

If you take the time to review and reflect on the actions taken by Joanna on channels under her control on libera.chat, I believe you will arrive at the conclusion that her interpretation of the role as a channel's steward and all-powerful operator can only be perceived as detrimental to any positive and inclusive form of community one could hope to foster in such a setting.

Thank you for your time, attention and consideration.

HSN wrote

Irc is one of the few platforms left on the Internet where there is no phone number or email required to talk.

Yet, I had to enter a valid email address to register for the #fpc IRC channel, and confirm its valid. So there goes that theory of yours. :-)

My preference is still good old NNTP (newsgroups).
* Doesn't require registration
* Doesn't require a valid email address
* Users are free to use any News Client they prefer, with the feature they want/need.
* History of conversations can be stored forever - no loss of information (the internet is fragile enough already)
* Past messages are searchable (an ever growing knowledge base)

Hence I've been hosting newsgroups for some open source projects for well over a decade now.

Regards,
Graeme