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Why #fpc matters (HSN) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT) From: geneb To: HSN via fpc-other Subject: Re: [fpc-other] #fpc irc channel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" On Wed, 19 Apr 2023, HSN via fpc-other wrote: > Hi everyone > I have helped nikolay moderate the #fpc channels for years since it had become unusable due to trolls back on freenode . > > First I want to clarify regarding the #fpc channel rules > 1. Lurkers - pascal programmers can lurk all they like. Strangers with unknown intentions cannot. Why not? If they're just lurking, they're not impacting anyone. > 8.Introduction: please tell me who are and how you found channel when you join. It makes my life a lot easier. I don?t want to accidentally ban you because of some misunderstanding. This is literally none of your business. You banned me as "rude" when I said as much. > 9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People who engage in harassment will be shown the door. > ...or don't kowtow to the demands of the empress. Check out the Unofficial Free Pascal Discord server here: https://discord.me/unofficialfreepascal (Much Pascal, no interrogation.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 15:03:45 +0000 From: HSN To: "" Subject: [fpc-other] #fpc irc channel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I bet there could be people in these mailing lists that don?t even use pascal. It?s is understandable why someone who doesn?t use pascal could be offended about being asked to talk about what they are doing in pascal... People I know who like pascal don?t seem to have These hang ups. If nobody knows the backstory about freenode, it was taken over and destroyed on purpose to get people off of irc and onto platforms that spy on users and monetize their data. Irc is one of the few platforms left on the Internet where there is no phone number or email required to talk. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.freepascal.org/pipermail/fpc-other/attachments/20230420/6ed2a9cf/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 19:23:17 -0400 From: Steve Litt To: Subject: Re: [fpc-other] #fpc irc channel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 geneb via fpc-other said on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Hi geneb, Please pass this on to HSN, whom I assume is Joanna... >On Wed, 19 Apr 2023, HSN via fpc-other wrote: > >> Hi everyone >> I have helped nikolay moderate the #fpc channels for years since it >> had become unusable due to trolls back on freenode . Trolls don't lurk, so why the antipathy for lurkers Joanna? >> >> First I want to clarify regarding the #fpc channel rules >> 1. Lurkers - pascal programmers can lurk all they like. Strangers >> with unknown intentions cannot. >Why not? If they're just lurking, they're not impacting anyone. Also, I made tens of thousands of dollars with both Whitesmith Pascal and Turbo Pascal last century, but this century I just do Pascal every few months. So am I a Pascal programmer? If there's a Pascal aptitude test to qualify for #fpc, please point me to it so I can cram and pass the test. > >> 8.Introduction: please tell me who are and how you found channel >> when you join. It makes my life a lot easier. I don?t want to >> accidentally ban you because of some misunderstanding. >This is literally none of your business. You banned me as "rude" when >I said as much. Furthermore, if not answering your questions is a bannable offense, you should say so in the /topic. Not in a web page pointed to /topic, but in the /topic text itself. As a matter of fact, that topic should list all the bannable and kickable offenses, so we know you're not making up rules as you go or engaging in selective enforcement. Also, as I remember (I can no longer access #fpc), there were many, many channel operators. Why should I pay attention to *one particular* chanop who interrogates me? If there's a bannable rule that I must answer a chanops questions, this should have been stated in /topic. One more thing Joanna. Your reputation precedes you. I felt less likely to run afoul of the channel rules if I didn't respond to you, and more likely to run afoul of the channel rules if I engaged with you. But that's a moot point, because I was away from my desk, so I *couldn't* have responded to either your public or private questioning. > >> 9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People who engage in >> harassment will be shown the door. >...or don't kowtow to the demands of the empress. I was not unfriendly. I harassed nobody. I already said why I didn't engage with you. As far as friendly and helpful, how friendly were you, Joanna, by saying publicly that you couldn't coinhabit a channel with somebody who had written what I did on a *mailing list*? Joanna, you should unban everyone you've banned in the past 2 years, and then permanently step down from your chanop status. Your chanop activities are hurting the FPC project and the Pascal language itself by making it difficult to comfortably access IRC help for FPC. I'm "lurking" on the #C channel right now, nobody's interrogating or hassling me, and to tell the truth, C isn't that bad except you need to free all your allocations, take steps not to overrun any buffers, and initialize all your variables and pointers. Valgrind is a great help in this. Your chanop actions make the FPC alternatives start to look pretty good. It could be said that my words in this post aren't friendly or helpful. Friendly, no. My words are a little harsh, which I think is called for by the situation, because they're the truth. Your words on #IRC and here are probably less friendly than mine. Helpful? If you unban everyone, step down as a chanop, and just enjoy the language you love, it will help everyone. > >Check out the Unofficial Free Pascal Discord server here: >https://discord.me/unofficialfreepascal > >(Much Pascal, no interrogation.) > >g. geneb, years ago I made a policy decision not to work with discord, but I'm now re-thinking that policy, in light of the fact that I can't currently get help on the IRC channel assumed by most to be the official FPC channel. I'd like everyone to know that there's now #fpc-alt for ontopic and ##fpc-alt for offtopic. writeln('Give everyone a break and step down, Joanna.'); SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 19:42:53 -0400 From: Steve Litt To: Subject: Re: [fpc-other] #fpc irc channel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 HSN via fpc-other said on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 15:03:45 +0000 >I bet there could be people in these mailing lists that don?t even use >pascal. It?s is understandable why someone who doesn?t use pascal >could be offended about being asked to talk about what they are doing >in pascal... People I know who like pascal don?t seem to have These >hang ups. Maybe people lurk because they want to *learn* FPC. Or maybe their Pascal skills are so low they need to ask questions and cannot prove their Pascal expertness. > >If nobody knows the backstory about freenode, it was taken over and >destroyed on purpose to get people off of irc and onto platforms that >spy on users and monetize their data. Irc is one of the few platforms >left on the Internet where there is no phone number or email required >to talk. Which is EXACTLY why I use IRC. Your actions (assuming HSN=='Joanna') push people away from IRC (and Pascal) just as much as trolls, insulters, political junkies and biggots do. So why don't you unban us all, and if **on #fpc** any of us starts insulting people or groups of people, or insulting FPC or Pascal, or going on and on about their wonderful vacation to the South of France or their ski trip in Colorado, you can warn them and if they persist kick or even ban them. But not for not answering your questions, or for not posting. Name me one other IRC channel that does that. Joanna, you have the power to end this whole mess right now just by revoking all the bans and using more reasonable moderation techniques in the future. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:35:22 -0400 From: Steve Litt To: Subject: Re: [fpc-other] #fpc irc channel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 HSN via fpc-other said on Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:03:51 +0000 >Hi everyone >I have helped nikolay moderate the #fpc channels for years since it >had become unusable due to trolls back on freenode . > >First I want to clarify regarding the #fpc channel rules >1. Lurkers - pascal programmers can lurk all they like. Strangers with >unknown intentions cannot. By definition, lurkers are not damaging, regardless of their intentions. 2. Purpose - the channel is for people who >use and want to talk about creating projects with fpc and Lazarus >Delphi programmers are also welcome That's reasonable. 3.Pascal: people in channel are >expected to have at least beginner level proficiency in pascal >language so that they can understand what is happening and >participate. People who don?t know pascal can visit #pascal and >utilize the resources in topic. Here we have to define beginner level proficiency. Somebody in their second week of a Pascal class? Somebody who is pretty good with procedural Pascal but iffy about Pascal OOP and all these millions of new flags and types? Also, there are only 17 people on #pascal, which makes getting questions answered in a reasonable time much less probable. 4. Bots: bots are allowed only with >permission from channel owners. This includes chatbots. Completely understandable, but somebody should be assumed carbon based until proven bot. And heck, if the bot is ontopic and helpful, what's the difference? 5.offtopic >chat:When no technical discussions are happening, sensible pleasant >off topic chat is both allowed and enjoyed. Sounds good to me. 6.Sincerity: channel >members are expected to demonstrate sincerity and post questions that >channel members were unable answer in forums or mailing lists if asked >to. Thanks for letting us know. I often wait 2 days and then repost if no answer. I'll try to remember not to do that if I'm ever allowed back on #fpc. 7.Joining:the #fpc requires users to be logged into account to >enter, Do you mean logged into libera.chat? If so, of course. > however I can add your IP address to the invite list so that >you can join without an account if you prefer. 8.Introduction: please >tell me who are and how you found channel when you join. It makes my >life a lot easier. Unfortunately, I found the channel via the thread on the moderation of #fpc. I love IRC, and if this mess ever gets fixed I'd love to post short, simple FPC questions on IRC, saving the more complicated ones for email. On most IRC channels, I also help people when I know answers or next steps. >I don?t want to accidentally ban you because of >some misunderstanding. > 9. Culture: Friendly and helpful. Rude People >who engage in harassment will be shown the door. Here we have to define rude. On the mailing list I admin, we don't allow personal insults, insults to groups of people, insults to Linux (after all, it's a Linux group mailing list), and long and frequent occurrences of posts obviously intended to start arguments. So far, since 2004, I've banned three people, issued less than 10 warnings, and once I threw the whole list under moderation to stop a rapidly escalating flame war. I think as a moderator you also have a responsibility to behave in a way that doesn't make people feel like they're walking on eggshells and worry that a question or an answer might get them reprimanded or banned. > >I cordially invite all pascal programmers who are able to abide by >these rules to join us That's me, and in my opinion all the people in this thread who have been banned from #fpc. Why don't you unban us all and we can all start over? SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 06:33:26 +0000 From: HSN To: "" Subject: [fpc-other] Why #fpc matters Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello everyone this is Joanna I discovered fpc and Lazarus around 2014. Before that I was involved with online gaming and programming bots. I have been creating projects with fpc using Lazarus ide for a long time. Pascal is the only language I use so I have no other languages to fall back upon if the fpc project were to disappear. I can?t emphasize enough how grateful I am that fpc and Lazarus were created. I think that there are far too many people who take the work that the developers do for granted and never think about all the long hours of their spare time that they have donated to the project. I want the developers to live happy stress free lives so that they can continue writing good code. I wish that there was a way for me to protect the developers from grief and wasted time caused by orchestrated drama from malicious people with bad intentions. Fpc should be enthusiastically promoted on all possible platforms and places to enable more people to discover and use it. IRC is a good place to promote fpc because irc is a protocol which allows people to choose their own clients as well as not requiring email or cell phone. People can and have created their own irc clients using fpc!! Where else can you do that? I know it isn?t always easy but I want to do what is best for the #fpc community, even if it takes some extra effort on my part. The #fpc channel and people in it represent the fpc project. Every word sent to the channel reflects not only upon our community, but upon me as well. We need more people who can help improve the channel. I staunchly believe that only people who are willing to both learn pascal and do projects with it are qualified to represent this amazing compiler written in pascal. I firmly believe that the discourse in the channel should be controlled by humans who belong there. The Internet has hundreds of thousands of places to chat about all sorts of things. The number of places where we can chat about using pascal without being ridiculed are few and far between. We have a right to talk about fpc/pascal related things and socialize without being interrupted,bothered, surveilled or harrassed by non pascal users who have a lot more choices of places to go than we do. Once again I cordially invite all pascal programmers who can abide by the channel rules to join us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.freepascal.org/pipermail/fpc-other/attachments/20230421/85cacab1/attachment.htm> ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ fpc-other maillist - https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other ------------------------------ End of fpc-other Digest, Vol 150, Issue 6 *****************************************

This is a step in the right direction. Thank you Joanna. Tomas (Hajny), I beg you, please step in and take temporary control of #fpc until the project itself can take control. If #fpc is left for just anybody to register, things could go from bad to worse. I'd do it myself, except as a banned individual I can't register a channel I'm banned from. I'll be glad to help you. And please ASAP unban those 52 people, or at least the 43 banned by Joanna.