Hi,
These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo becomes a "brand", a unique visual identity for the language. It also acts as a "trademark", a recognizable image for the language. It also helps the community to have a single visual identity to distinguish them from other programming communities. I've seen it with many other communities, such as Swift, Python, Kotlin, etc. Unfortunately, I don't see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a such logo. Yes, I know the FPC's official site got a running cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. But, I don't think an animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A logo should be simple, unique, recognizable and "iconizable" image. So, I propose a new logo for Free Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The proposed logo in various sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/ I also attach the logo as a .png file, in case someone can't open my website. If this proposal is accepted, perhaps it's time to rework the official FPC's website, using the new logo. It's time to make Pascal looks more modern, because it looks pretty old today. I also think the Lazarus' logo can be made better, but that's another discussion for another time. What do you think?
Thank you.
Regards,
–Mr Bee

I like the idea, I would only prefer if the cheetah looks a little bit more friendly :) Mainly by more almond shaped like eyes and visible iris and pupil, I'll send you a roughly modified version of your logo which shows the idea in private.

I would get rid of the whiskers.

Michael.

We have also updated classical logo :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/136Ft-sZsnm6uJPmBXeDIeCUW-u0GJ8qS/view?usp=sharing

svg version:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y1IsWgvPx9S89XD_ZTzg12gz0Va-_nNS/view?usp=sharing

2018-03-30 10:09 GMT+02:00 Florian Klämpfl :

2018-03-30 15:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

I would get rid of the whiskers.

What's wrong with the whiskers? 😄

IMHO It makes the cheetah look more like a kitten.

Michael.

Hi,
 
cheetahs have usually more rounded head and rounded ears. And whiskers should be curved. http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/cheetah-populations-keep-falling-scientists-demand-better-protection#stream/0 Just my 50 cents.
 
V.
 
______________________________________________________________

Hi,These days, most modern programming languages have its own logo. The logo becomes a "brand", a unique visual identity for the language. It also acts as a "trademark", a recognizable image for the language. It also helps the community to have a single visual identity to distinguish them from other programming communities. I've seen it with many other communities, such as Swift, Python, Kotlin, etc.Unfortunately, I don't see Pascal language –especially Free Pascal– to have a such logo. Yes, I know the FPC's official site got a running cheetah (a .gif file) named as logo. But, I don't think an animated picture is appropriate to be used as a logo. A logo should be simple, unique, recognizable and "iconizable" image.So, I propose a new logo for Free Pascal. It's a simple cheetah's head. The proposed logo in various sizes (for icon) can be looked at here: https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/ <https://pak.lebah.web.id/fpc/> I also attach the logo as a .png file, in case someone ca n't open my website.If this proposal is accepted, perhaps it's time to rework the official FPC's website, using the new logo. It's time to make Pascal looks more modern, because it looks pretty old today. I also think the Lazarus' logo can be made better, but that's another discussion for another time.What do you think?Thank you.Regards,–Mr Bee

----------

And as you can see, the whiskers are barely visible, and not black...

Michael.

Michael Van Canneyt wrote

IMHO It makes the cheetah look more like a kitten.

That was my first thought too - the logo looks too kitten like.

Else maybe try and make the wiskers about a 1/3 of the line width to see if that reduces the "kitten" look.

Regards,
Graeme

The proposed logo is updated.

What's new:
- it has eye balls.
- more rounded face.
- more rounded ears.
- more visible whiskers.

Cheetah is a member of cat big family. So, of course it will look like a cat or kitten. Nothing I can do about it.

Are there more suggestions? Thank you.

2018-03-31 21:24 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers. It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten. So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.

As an exercise I have done the job for you. See attached picture. It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist. (I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)

If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then
a logo should represent the company/product group, whatever.

So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess, self-confidence.

Hardly things one associates with a kitten.

FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open source" did not exist. So maturity is important.

Using marketing/branding talk:
Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.

Michael.

Mr Bee wrote

The proposed logo is updated.

I think it's a nice logo.

Bart

Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers. It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten. So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.

As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:

http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png

It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist. (I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)

If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo should represent the company/product group, whatever.

So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess, self-confidence.

Hardly things one associates with a kitten.

FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open source" did not exist. So maturity is important.

Using marketing/branding talk:
Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.

Michael.

2018-04-02 16:36 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers.

I opened lazarus.freepascal.org and I found it's using a paw as its logo. Did I miss something? Sorry… I haven't been following Lazarus news for quite a while, so I don't know the current logo.

It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten. So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.

But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo weren't really look like a cheetah's face.

As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here: http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png

Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?

It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist. (I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)

I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings for a hobby.

Modern logo doesn't necessarily have to represent the WHOLE values of a company/product, because a company/product should be dynamic that could/should change over time. So is the logo. Take a look at most modern logo of big companies today, i.e. Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. For example, I can't see any of Apple's values (both the company and the products) got represented on a bitten gray apple fruit. It looks dull, at least to me. But the Apple brand image is so powerful and what people think about Apple is far from dull. Or… what values can we see from a G shaped with four bright colors of Google's logo? It looks like a letter toy. Or Linux logo, Swift logo, Kotlin logo, etc.

Hardly things one associates with a kitten.

I don't think it looks like a kitten, especially the updated one. But of course it looks like a cat, because cheetah is a cat.

FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open source" did not exist. So maturity is important.

How do we put "maturity" onto a cheetah's face? Cheetah is known as the fastest animal on land. That's what the most recognizable value of a cheetah logo. And that's what people should think about (Free) Pascal: it's FAST. By making the logo looks more modern, it also brings modernity value. So, the new logo should represent something that's fast and modern. And cheetah is also cute as a mascot. And cuteness is attracting young people. :)

Using marketing/branding talk:

Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.

I understand. But I'm not fully agree with you either. The main reason I'm proposing new logo for Free Pascal –or even Pascal language in general– is I want to bring Pascal to the young people. I want these kids know that Pascal today is as modern, fast, and dynamic as other well-known programming languages. I hate it when I told them I'm writing a software using Pascal and they look at me like I'm a dinosaur. Some of them even asking me, "how do you make a web app using Turbo Pascal?" :D

In fact, I'm currently designing of another Pascal logo that's more abstract, simpler, friendlier, and more colorful. It's still based on cheetah's face though. I'll present it as second alternative, once I'm done with it. :)

More to the point, why is a Cheetah logo being discussed in the context of Free Pascal?

If FPC is to have a logo it should be distinct from Lazarus since it's a separate project, although ideally they'd be complementary: an expanse of bushveldt with a couple of trees or similar (but please, no prey animals).

There's also the important question of whether an image selected as a logo can be scaled down to be used as an icon.

Mark Morgan Lloyd schrieb am Mo., 2.
Apr. 2018, 15:13:

Because the cheetah *is* FPC's logo. Why do you think we have that animated cheetah on the FPC parts of the site, but not the Lazarus ones?

Regards,
Sven

Mr Bee wrote

Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?

Exactly what I suggested. Overall, your logo 2nd logo looks "less" kitten like than the first one. So it is heading in the right direction.

I think almost invisible whiskers is what you should be aiming for. I think that will help.

Regards,
Graeme

I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.

Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the little running cheetah on the website.

A lot thinner :)

You may also want to experiment with the direction. Upwards, downwards - horizontal. Drooping...

The quality of your drawing shows it !

True, but these logos are not animals.

And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box than in the packaging...

At the very least by not making it look like a kitten :)

If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should definitely aim for cute :)

But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it cornered.

I don't see a kitten do this. Well, it may try, but will fail utterly... :)

I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change this...

I am curious :)

And last but definitely not least:

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !

Michael.

On Tue, April 3, 2018 09:21, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

.
.

If nothing else, there's the logo used for the IDE on the desktop on Win32 (/install/binw32/fp32.ico in the fpcbuild repository).

.
.

> I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings > for a hobby. The quality of your drawing shows it !

It isn't very clear which part of the previous sentence was referred to in this response (I assume the latter and that it was thus meant as a compliment rather than something else, of course).

Tomas

Hm. I doubt the term "logo" qualifies, but yes, presumably this is it :)

It was definitely meant as a compliment.

I certainly would not be able to create such a professional-looking drawing or image. My graphical skills are non-existent...

Michael.

2018-04-03 14:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.

Do you mean this:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-proposal-bpsoftware.png ?

A lot thinner :)

Let's see what I can do.

And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly

fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box

than in the packaging...

Well… if we want Pascal to be known again –as modern programming language, not the old 70's Pascal– then branding is quite important. Especially to young generation. See what Apple has been achiving with Swift within only 4 years. It goes from nothing to the top 10 of most known programming languages of the world today, despite all of its flaws and immaturity. Sure it's also helped by the power of Apple's brand (and marketting), it's still a good achievement nevertheless.

Well, I'm exactly aiming at young people, the next generation of Pascal developers. I've been seeing FPC's core devs team doesn't change much since the first time I found FPC almost 20 years ago. I mean no offense, but I'm not hoping to see this same team again for the next 20 years. I hope we're starting to see new and younger people joining this great open source project that we love. These young people is our hope to keep Pascal alive in the future.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction

about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it cornered.

It's just a logo. It's a brand, not a 100% exact representation of the product/company. Don't take it too literally. Python is also a wild and dangerous animal, but Python language and the users are very far from that. :)

I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.

I meant Pascal for server side web app, similar to Python or PHP or whatever.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change

this...

Of course, a new logo isn't a silver bullet. It won't make Pascal famous overnight. This new logo surely wouldn't help much if we don't follow it with promotions and good contents. But at least, we have a new, fresh, attractive, and modern face to begin with. Hopefully this new face would bring new spirit to the community to do more. I've read somewhere in the list/forum, some people even suggested to change Pascal name to break the relation and association to the old Pascal. Should we?

You know what, almost every time I talk about Pascal to young developers, they think the old and stupid Brian Kernighan's article "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language" still applied. It's the reason why RemObject use a new name for its Pascal-based compiler.

I am curious :)

Thank you, but I can't promise you anything yet. I'm doing this in my spare time, mostly on the weekend. We're in no rush, just consider this as a mind project.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I

think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !

You're welcome. I fully understand it. It's alright. In fact, we need your opinion, also from other FPC core devs as well. We need to know what you guys want with the logo in particular and the project in general. This new logo proposal means nothing without core devs' approval. I'm just a happy user and big supporter of FPC who haven't contribute anything useful to the project.

Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.

Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to program for the Mac these days ?

Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.

I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing to do with it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.

Absolutely.

The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable, people?

I doubt that.

And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing seriously.

On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand "don't take it too literally".

That simply does not compute for me.

Michael.

let me try to make it clear.
1) branding is important in the same sense that a stab of approval is important or the CE logo is important in EU. It must be unique it must be easily recognizable.
2) It is important that the logo deviates from the actual object it represents a lot otherwise it stops being unique and it becomes one more kitten in the internet, unless of course you have a couple of million to spend on advertising and building the company image in which case forget everything I said use a gray half eaten mouse and you are set.

Hm. Clearly, that means not important at all for me:

I cannot recall ever having looked at the CE logo. In fact, until 30 seconds ago, I did not even know what it stands for.

At least I've learned that then :)

Michael.

Well it is, you are just not aware of it.
It presents it self in the most subtle ways eg you like a place because it is homey, which means it smells familiar or the lighting is familiar or colors are familiar . A logo is the same way it might become something to cherish or something to avoid but it will affect your primary selection long before you rich the point of evaluation. the idea is to have something simple & familiar that will add you to the point of evaluation.

At least I've learned that then :)

Well, sorry I wasted your time, that might had some weight if it wasn't mandatory. As things are now its only a cost for the EU residents.

2018-04-04 16:58 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt :

But it's Lazarus logo. I think we should have a distinguished logo between the compiler and the IDE.

Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to

program for the Mac these days ? Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.

Actually, nobody pushes anybody to use anything. As a first party solution, of course it would be advertised as the best tool for the platform. Being advertised doesn't mean it's pushed to everyone because in reality you can use whatever tool you want as long it supports the platform.

I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing to do with it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.

Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits and advantages if you use first party solution that sometimes can't be provided by third party solutions. Some might see it as being locked, some others might see it as a service.

The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable, people? I doubt that.

I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)

And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing

seriously. On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand "don't take it too literally". That simply does not compute for me.

Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't need to represent the company/product literally. A brand is like our name. Everybody is known by the name, but the name doesn't necessarily represent the image of the person literally. Mr White doesn't have to be a man in all white color, for example. Yet everyone would still call him Mr White. Everybody knows apple is a fruit, yet everybody knows a bitten Apple fruit logo represents a company that produces computers and smartphones with no apple fruits involved whatsoever.

I didn't say you need to copy it. I just think that it is minimalistic, yet still recognizable, and that is what I think should be aimed for.

I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)

I am not favouring "serious", but 'cute' does not do it for me. See my remark about 'my little pony' people.

To begin with, I do not hold the point of view that branding is important. So the rest of the discussion is purely academic.

However, if I must choose between a mascot that I dislike or the current gif of a running cheetah, I will vote in favour of the latter option.

Michael.

Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits...

The benefits being mostly that you don't have the disadvantages especially introduced for not using it?

Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't need to represent the company/product literally.

But it needs to represent.

A brand is like our name.

No, it's not.

R.

P.S.: Cute logos s*ck

I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys ever actually seen a kitten? This logo looks like a cheetah, as it's presumably supposed to. And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites honestly.

I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys ever actually seen a kitten?

Sure, they look like this: https://tinyurl.com/y9hod4gg

And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites honestly.

Better does not mean good.
The point being is that tastes differ.

R.