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Mailing lists / fpc-pascal / 2001-07

FPC on the press

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Fernando Lozano

Hi there!

You may like to know that Brazillian computer magazine PC Master (http://www.europanet.com.br/revistas/pcmaster/index.htm) published this month (July) the first of two articles about Free Pascal.

The articles shows Windows and Linux versions of FPC, how to install, how to compile programs, units and dynamic libraries, how to interface with C code, how to debug using GDB, how to use SciTE as a GUI front-end to the compiler and how to use databases (Interbase). Besides, the article talks about projects like Lazarus and compares FPC with Delphi, showing the advantages of each other (yes, FPC does have many advantages over Kylix of you forget about RAD stuff)!

Unfortunately, the web site does not have the text of the articles.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Unknown author

Sure wish I knew Spanish...

Fernando Lozano
Sent by:
07/10/2001 05:40 PM
Please respond to fpc-pascal

To:
cc:
Subject: [fpc-pascal]FPC on the press

Hi there!

You may like to know that Brazillian computer magazine PC Master (http://www.europanet.com.br/revistas/pcmaster/index.htm) published this month (July) the first of two articles about Free Pascal.

The articles shows Windows and Linux versions of FPC, how to install, how to compile programs, units and dynamic libraries, how to interface with C code, how to debug using GDB, how to use SciTE as a GUI front-end to the compiler and how to use databases (Interbase). Besides, the article talks about projects like Lazarus and compares FPC with Delphi, showing the advantages of each other (yes, FPC does have many advantages over Kylix of you forget about RAD stuff)!

Unfortunately, the web site does not have the text of the articles.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Thomas Schatzl
to Fernando Lozano: Hi there! You may like to know that Brazillian computer magazine PC Master…

Hello,

Earlier message 19 lines
From: "Fernando Lozano" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: [fpc-pascal]FPC on the press > Hi there! > > The articles shows Windows and Linux versions of FPC, how to install, > how to compile programs, units and dynamic libraries, how to interface > with C code, how to debug using GDB, how to use SciTE as a GUI front-end > to the compiler and how to use databases (Interbase). Besides, the > article talks about projects like Lazarus and compares FPC with Delphi, > showing the advantages of each other (yes, FPC does have many advantages > over Kylix of you forget about RAD stuff)! Which ones ? Regards, Thomas
Unknown author

Guess I can't read it more then I thought! :-)

Jim

Full_Name
Sent by:
07/11/2001 10:27 AM
Please respond to fpc-pascal

To:
cc:
Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal]FPC on the press

Quoting

Sure wish I knew Spanish...

And Portuguese to read the article? ;-)

Matt

Fernando Lozano

Hi Thomas,

Show quoted text 5 lines
> article talks about projects like Lazarus and compares FPC with Delphi, > showing the advantages of each other (yes, FPC does have many advantages > over Kylix of you forget about RAD stuff)! Which ones ?

1. FPC is free software (liberty, not price)

2. FPC can use any GPL-ed library availabe. Kylix uses its own run-time libraries and units, which are not compatible (in terms of licensing) with the GPL

3. You can use FPC to develop new free software; you cannot with Kylix

4. FPC comes with GTK units. Even with the announced support of GTK on future releases of Kylix, it will generate fatter apps because of the CLX overhead (Lazarus clone of CLX has lower overhed by design than borland CLX)

5. FPC supports more plataforms

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Fernando Lozano

Hi James,

Sure wish I knew Spanish...

We from Brazil speak portuguese, not spanish. :-)

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Matt Emson
to Fernando Lozano: 1. FPC is free software (liberty, not price) 2. FPC can use any GPL-ed library availabe.…
2. FPC can use any GPL-ed library availabe. Kylix uses its own run-time

libraries and units, which are not compatible (in terms of licensing) with the GPL

Not strictly true.. some of the CLX is free and open sourced. You can certainly use anything that *is* free/gpl/opensource with Kylix.

3. You can use FPC to develop new free software; you cannot with Kylix

Untrue. There will even be a version of Kylix that is free, and with which you may *only* make GPL'd software. With the retail version of Kylix you can do whatever you like.. and if you use the part of the CLX that's open sourced, it's totally possible to make a fully open sourced project.

4. FPC comes with GTK units. Even with the announced support of GTK on

future releases of Kylix, it will generate fatter apps because of the CLX overhead (Lazarus clone of CLX has lower overhed by design than borland CLX)

QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more closely. KDE supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed - this may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the desktop of choice. It was a simple design choice.

5. FPC supports more plataforms

This is the only one of the 5 points I agree with ;-)

Matt

Matti Hamalainen
to Matt Emson
Matt Emson wrote 8 lines
> 4. FPC comes with GTK units. Even with the announced support of GTK on future releases of Kylix, it will generate fatter apps because of the CLX overhead (Lazarus clone of CLX has lower overhed by design than borland CLX) QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more closely. KDE supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed - this may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the desktop of choice. It was a simple design choice.

Somewhat off-topic, but: Is the Kylix's CLX tied to KDE? I don't like at all to be tied to some wannabe-windows-desktop-lameness ;) if I ever have to develop some commercial stuff with Kylix. If it only requires Qt, then I'm OK with it (although I like Gtk+ better for it's better themeability ;), but if it requires KDE .. yuck!

=- ccr/TNSP^pWp
] | http://www.tnsp.org/
] Show me your "realtime raytracer in Java"
] and I'll show you my CBM 8032, 2 MHz!

Michael Van Canneyt
to Matti Hamalainen
Matti Hamalainen wrote 7 lines
On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Matt Emson wrote: > > 4. FPC comes with GTK units. Even with the announced support of GTK on > future releases of Kylix, it will generate fatter apps because of the CLX > overhead (Lazarus clone of CLX has lower overhed by design than borland CLX) > > QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more closely.

I don't think this has anything to do with it. The GTK object model is fine. The difference is that Qt is backed up by a company, which can be asked for help and which is a central instance to whom requests can be made.

Borland is a company that must make money, so these kinds of arguments also weigh heavily on architectural decisions.

Show quoted text 6 lines
KDE > supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed - this > may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the desktop > of choice. It was a simple design choice. Somewhat off-topic, but: Is the Kylix's CLX tied to KDE?

No. You can perfectly run Qt apps in any desktop; Any window manager will do.

I don't like at all to be tied to some wannabe-windows-desktop-lameness ;) if I ever have to develop some commercial stuff with Kylix. If it only requires Qt, then I'm OK with it (although I like Gtk+ better for it's better themeability ;), but if it requires KDE .. yuck!

It only requires Qt.

Michael.

Full_Name
to Michael Van Canneyt

Quoting Michael Van Canneyt :

I don't think this has anything to do with it. The GTK object model is fine. The difference is that Qt is backed up by a company, which can be asked for help and which is a central instance to whom requests can be made.

The GTK model is different enough from the VCL as to make it harder to port Delphi to Linux *quickly* using it. That's the real reason. When I look at QT (and indeed the Be API) I can see corresponding classes to my favourite Delphi components/classes. From what I've seen, GTK is more your straight C style API. The learning curve for Borland engineers was be a lot less with QT. The fact that GTK also has the FSF issues/connatations probably didn't help either.

Borland is a company that must make money, so these kinds of arguments also weigh heavily on architectural decisions.

Exactly.

Fernando Lozano
to Matti Hamalainen: Somewhat off-topic, but: Is the Kylix's CLX tied to KDE? I don't like at all to be tied…

Matti,

Show quoted text 10 lines
> QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more closely. KDE > supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed - this > may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the desktop > of choice. It was a simple design choice. Somewhat off-topic, but: Is the Kylix's CLX tied to KDE? I don't like at all to be tied to some wannabe-windows-desktop-lameness ;) if I ever have to develop some commercial stuff with Kylix. If it only requires Qt, then I'm OK with it (although I like Gtk+ better for it's better themeability ;), but if it requires KDE .. yuck!

Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But they designed a "windowsing toolkit abstraction layer" so they can replace dynamic libs and so make CLX use GTK+ instead. It's nice to have the native desktop look and feel allways, but this adds extra overhead to every app compiled with Kylix. But today Kylix uses only Qt, not GTK+ (and GTK+ itself is more cross-plataform).

[]s, Fernando Lozano

AITOR.SM
Show quoted text 6 lines
QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more closely. KDE supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed - this may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the desktopof choice. It was a simple design choice.

Somewhat offtopic, but does KDE support something of GTK at all?? I thought it was exclusively based on QT...

Aitor

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Peter Vreman
Show quoted text 9 lines
> QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more > closely. KDE > supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed > - this > may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the > desktopof choice. It was a simple design choice. Somewhat offtopic, but does KDE support something of GTK at all?? I thought it was exclusively based on QT...

You can easily run Gnome/GTK applications under KDE. And also the other way Qt/KDE applications under Gnome. It requires only that both KDE and Gnome are installed.

Full_Name
to Fernando Lozano: Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But they designed a…
Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But they designed a "windowsing toolkit abstraction layer" so they can replace dynamic libs and so make CLX use GTK+ instead.

Thats not really true. CLX is totally tied to QT, down to a fairly low level. They could re-write it to use GTK, but why do they need to?

It's nice to have the native desktop look and feel allways, but this adds extra overhead to every app compiled with Kylix.

Not really - it's buit into QT, so it's transparrent. It's QT that does all the theme-ing, which you actually originally mentiond as a plus point for GTK!!!

But today Kylix uses only Qt, not GTK+ (and GTK+ itself is more cross-plataform).

QT is very portable. The difference is the cost alone.

Matt

Marco van de Voort
to Full_Name

[ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]

Show quoted text 19 lines
> Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But > they designed a "windowsing toolkit abstraction layer" so they can > replace dynamic libs and so make CLX use GTK+ instead. Thats not really true. CLX is totally tied to QT, down to a fairly low level. They could re-write it to use GTK, but why do they need to? > It's nice to have > the native desktop look and feel allways, but this adds extra overhead > to every app compiled with Kylix. Not really - it's buit into QT, so it's transparrent. It's QT that does all the theme-ing, which you actually originally mentiond as a plus point for GTK!!! >But today Kylix uses only Qt, not > GTK+ (and GTK+ itself is more cross-plataform). QT is very portable. The difference is the cost alone.

Being portable and being actually ported are two different things.

AITOR.SM
Show quoted text 16 lines
> > QT has a better object model that GTK that suited the VCL more > > closely. KDE > > supports QT better than GTK (at the time Kylix was being developed > > - this > > may have changed.. I doubt it has though.) KDE is in many ways the > > desktopof choice. It was a simple design choice. > > Somewhat offtopic, but does KDE support something of GTK at all?? > I thought it was exclusively based on QT... You can easily run Gnome/GTK applications under KDE. And also the other way Qt/KDE applications under Gnome. It requires only that both KDE and Gnome are installed.

I know, but I mean no component (or at least base component) of KDE is made with GTK, right?

Aitor

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Fernando Lozano

HI there,

Show quoted text 5 lines
> Somewhat offtopic, but does KDE support something of GTK at all?? > I thought it was exclusively based on QT... You can easily run Gnome/GTK applications under KDE. And also the other way Qt/KDE applications under Gnome. It requires only that both KDE and Gnome are installed.

Actually you do not need the full Gnome installed to run Gnome apps under KDE, or vice-versa. You just need the basic set of libraries and not the full desktop. So you can save a lot of disk space and still run both set of apps.

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Fernando Lozano

Hi there!

Show quoted text 6 lines
> Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But > they designed a "windowsing toolkit abstraction layer" so they can > replace dynamic libs and so make CLX use GTK+ instead. Thats not really true. CLX is totally tied to QT, down to a fairly low level. They could re-write it to use GTK, but why do they need to?

Borland techinical staff told there is the abstraction layer as I told, and this was also said during the Kylix tour here.

Not really - it's buit into QT, so it's transparrent. It's QT that does all the theme-ing, which you actually originally mentiond as a plus point for GTK!!!

The Borland staff wasn't speaking about themes, but about really using Qt or GTK+ widgets. The same abstraction layer may permit CLX use Windows Controls instead of Qt widgets.

>But today Kylix uses only Qt, not > GTK+ (and GTK+ itself is more cross-plataform). QT is very portable. The difference is the cost alone.

There are any ports of Qt for other plataforms besides Windows and Unix (X11) today? And only the Linux port can be GPLed?

[]s, Fernando Lozano

Unknown author
to Fernando Lozano
Fernando Lozano wrote 13 lines
Hi there! > > Borland CLX today required only Qt, not the full set of KDE libs. But > > they designed a "windowsing toolkit abstraction layer" so they can > > replace dynamic libs and so make CLX use GTK+ instead. > > Thats not really true. CLX is totally tied to QT, down to a fairly low level. > They could re-write it to use GTK, but why do they need to? Borland techinical staff told there is the abstraction layer as I told, and this was also said during the Kylix tour here.

This is nonsense. Rewriting the CLX to use GTK will be A LOT of work ! Just download the code from sourceforge, and you'll see. The CLX is just a reworked version of the VCL, which uses QT calls instead of Win32 API calls.

So this 'abstraction layer' is _very_ thin in my opinion.

Show quoted text 7 lines
> Not really - it's buit into QT, so it's transparrent. It's QT that does all the > theme-ing, which you actually originally mentiond as a plus point for GTK!!! The Borland staff wasn't speaking about themes, but about really using Qt or GTK+ widgets. The same abstraction layer may permit CLX use Windows Controls instead of Qt widgets.

The same can be said from the VCL. Just replace the win32 calls with the appropriate Qt/GTK calls.

Show quoted text 10 lines
> >But today Kylix uses only Qt, not > > GTK+ (and GTK+ itself is more cross-plataform). > > QT is very portable. The difference is the cost alone. There are any ports of Qt for other plataforms besides Windows and Unix (X11) today? And only the Linux port can be GPLed?

I think there is a MacOS port, WinCE port and the windows port is GPLed (or will be GPLed) as well.

Michael.

Matt Emson
to Unknown author
> Borland techinical staff told there is the abstraction layer as I told, > and this was also said during the Kylix tour here.

They streatched the truth (i.e. lied)

This is nonsense. Rewriting the CLX to use GTK will be A LOT of work ! Just download the code from sourceforge, and you'll see. The CLX is just a reworked version of the VCL, which uses QT calls instead of Win32 API calls.

This is true. The CLX classes call C functions that directly wrap the C++ QT API. If that's not tied to QT, I don't know what is ;)

So this 'abstraction layer' is _very_ thin in my opinion.

Thin and crispy, rather than deep pan. Certainly not twistable crust, or cheese filled.

> The Borland staff wasn't speaking about themes, but about really using

Qt

> or GTK+ widgets. The same abstraction layer may permit CLX use Windows > Controls instead of Qt widgets.

If that's the case, then the same can be said for Lazarus.

The same can be said from the VCL. Just replace the win32 calls with the appropriate Qt/GTK calls.

And you end up with CLX ;)

> There are any ports of Qt for other plataforms besides Windows and Unix > (X11) today? And only the Linux port can be GPLed?

You can port QT fairly easily to any platform with an X server.

I think there is a MacOS port, WinCE port and the windows port is GPLed (or will be GPLed) as well.

The Windows port is not free.. though I hope it becomes so ;)

Matt