Hi all,

I was kick-banned from #pascal . See the following:

====================================================
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Joanna
* Joanna sets ban on $a:Stevelitt
* You have been kicked from #pascal by Joanna (slander and harrassment) ====================================================

I said nothing about Joanna on #irc or #pascal, so she's basing it on what I said on fpc-other. You guys have read what I said. Did that sound like slander and harassment to you? To me it sounded like an honest critique of her moderation practices.

I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong.

Slander? Tell me one thing I said that was untrue.

Harassment? Compare my true words to Joanna's pattern and practice of summarily and arbitrarily banning people for no
bans is simply breathtaking, and unique.

I suggest the FPC project remove channel #fpc from https://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_IRC_channel . There's no need to subject any FPC using people or people who want to use FPC to the kind of moderation that now happens on #fpc. Like it or not, the extreme moderation practices on #fpc reflect very badly on the FPC project. Speaking for myself, I'll continue using Lazarus, but I'm setting aside my plans to start doing more new construction of regular executables using Free Pascal.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

On 23 April 2023 04:16:41 +0200, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote:

Hi wrote,

.
.

I said nothing about Joanna on #irc or #pascal, so she's basing it on what I said on fpc-other. You guys have read what I said. Did that sound like slander and harassment to you? To me it sounded like an honest critique of her moderation practices.

Indeed; it's pure revenge. :-( I believe that you might contact the server administrators and ask them if they consider this an acceptable behaviour.

I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong.

I believe that you misinterpreted her statement. If I understand it correctly, she just wrote that somebody could invite the banned people to a different channel, but she never considered to free her supposed kingdom. :-(

.
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I would think that the disclaimer added to those pages should be sufficient?

Speaking for myself, I'll continue using Lazarus, but I'm setting aside my plans to start doing more new construction of regular executables using Free Pascal.

Well, it's up to you whether and how you use FPC, but deciding it depending on somebody's behaviour on an IRC channel is kind of similar thinking to Joanna's actions ("since somebody wrote something somewhere, I'll do something somewhere else")...

Tomas

she apparently needs a lesson in English and law... none of what i have seen that you have written qualifies, by definition, as slander and certainly not harassment...

from the Oxford Dictionary:
"slander: somebody/something to make a false spoken statement about somebody that is intended to damage the good opinion that people have of them."

i've seen no false statements made about her.

from the Oxford Dictionary:
"harassment: 1. the act of annoying or worrying somebody by putting pressure on them or saying or doing unpleasant things to them.
2. the act of making repeated attacks on an enemy."

i've seen no "pressure" being put on her, no repeated attacks, and certainly nothing defining her as an "enemy"...

IANAL but it certainly appears that she is reaching quite far to justify her actions... if anything, it would appear that she is slandering you by her statement that you are slandering and harassing her...

I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong.

i didn't see her say that she was stepping down... what i saw was her saying that she was giving up whatever rights she thought she had to the public and accessible _ban list_...

the fact that she is using statements made elsewhere to justify her actions in some IRC channels that she moderates raises quite a number of red flags... red flags that should maybe be taken to that IRC network's admins if anyone cares to really do something about them...

Good day to you all!

Tomas Hajny wrote

On 23 April 2023 04:16:41 +0200, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote: [...] Indeed; it's pure revenge. :-( I believe that you might contact the server administrators and ask them if they consider this an acceptable behaviour.

The libera.chat network operators actually had their eyes on the #fpc and #lazarus channels a while back (before I had noticed - and later felt - the problem with Joanna's excessive use of moderation powers myself... please check the forum thread at [0] and the transcript at [1] in particular (esp. around the [17:33:28] timestamp) for details).

However, due to network policy, they cannot and will not meaningfully interfere.

I approached one of those operators in private after they had gathered some information concerning the situation in channels managed by Joanna, and one of them told me (direct quote):

"We wish there was something we could do but we have a hands off policy unless network policies are being violated and in this case they are not :("

They also told me that they were "frustrated at the whole siutation", which I can *very* much relate to.

The only ones who can fix the situation are those who can exercise the same or more powers over the channel(s) as/than Joanna can. For #fpc, those persons' registered nicknames are, as far as I gather from Chanserv:

- arahael
- nickysn
- Chain|Q

Turns out I had initially misinterpreted her statement to the mailing list in that very same way as well, but the follow-up in her usual, defiant tone cleared things up very well...

It's a pity this channel should go to waste because of its mad ruler.

Thankfully, #lazarus has apparently been saved in the meantime.

If it were my decision, I would not endorse any of the channels subject to Joanna's moderation even by mentioning. But then again I believe to have been treated _very_ unfairly by her in the past (again, see [0]), so I'm probably not the best advisor to rely on in the matter ;)

Of course, I will continue using both fpc and lazarus, no matter what comes of this little tragedy. Both projects are of much too awesome utility to me to leave them behind just because of some toxic individual's unjust rule over some project-adjacent IRC property.

[0]: https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,62584.0.html [1]: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/fdc31280

Unfortunately, that is not possible, as per libera.chat's network policy (which I consider a net benefit in general -- but as with free speech, there's some nasty side effects to be had).

Check out https://paste.debian.net/plain/1273023 for one such failed attempt in particular.

The tl;dr version:

Joanna interrogates a new user (disso_peach) how/why they were interested in fpc. disso_peach (afaiui) states they are developing a new OS and would like to port fpc to it.

After that particular strand of conversation dies down, Joanna takes a while of silence to ban disso_peach ([01:00:45]). I (colo) inquire why disso_peach had been banned, and the reson given reads "[15:21:40] <Joanna> He was trying to discredit our community".

Joanna then begins to interrogate me in her usual fashion, and I endure the public ordeal to make my case against her abuse of power.

Two IRC network operators present in the channel (Boohumbug and jess-o-lantern) come to the conclusion that "[16:28:39] <jess-o-lantern> that you're running the channel quite toxicly", and "[16:28:41] <Boohumbug> _YOU_ are the common denominator in this." (both adressing Joanna with that).

They continue and effectively conclude with "[16:29:42] <jess-o-lantern> there's nothing staff can or should do about that, channels are free to run themselves how they want, but my opinion is you're running this channel with unnecessary and arbitrary use of power"

-- tl;dr fin --

Therefore, any change regarding #fpc and its moderation style/personnel will have to originate from those who have power over the *channel*, not from those with who have power over the *network* hosting it.

I understood this as, she's offering the ban list, so you can invite these people to the new channel #fpc-alt, if you believe they've been banned unjustly.

Nikolay