Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

On 2016-10-30 17:24, Sven Barth wrote:

Responding to fpc-other, because it's off-topic.

> Same here...

I don't miss any messages, i.e. it isn't a general problem (which obviously doesn't imply that there is no problem).

Do you get spam from FPC lists very often? I believe that the existing controls block most if not all of it quite efficiently. On the other hand, NNTP is not guaranteed to be free of spam, nor ensuring smooth communication for everybody either (as an example, it may not be accessible from corporate environments).

Tomas

Tomas Hajny wrote

Responding to fpc-other, because it's off-topic.

I can't see why... but okay.

I don't miss any messages, i.e. it isn't a general problem (which obviously doesn't imply that there is no problem).

Over the years I have seen so many issues with the mailing lists. Missing messages, messages being delivered out of sequence, some domains not accept etc etc.

Do you get spam from FPC lists very often? I believe that the existing controls block most if not all of it quite efficiently.

On occasion I do get spam via the mailing list, but I must admit the FPC mailing list admin has done a good job in that regard. The situation is much better than other mailing lists.

On the other hand, NNTP is not guaranteed to be free of spam,

Yes, the Usenet Newsgroups are often pestered with spam. But if you looked at any private NNTP servers, 99.99% of the time there is zero spam messages. Plus the newsgroup admin can simply delete such a post, and nobody else would see it - that can't be done with mailing lists.

nor ensuring smooth communication for everybody either (as an example, it may not be accessible from corporate environments).

Over the years I have heard many say that, but I am yet to see such a case. That obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it is just very unlikely. And even if it does, that is exactly why I host a Web Interface to my news server - for those very rare edge cases.

I can also argue that many corporate environments would frown upon using a company email account to register to a non-company related mailing list. In the past I have also had some issues with company email accounts and mailing lists - very dependent on how the company emails are set up and how messages are being distributed.

NNTP has many other benefits too:
* A clear separation of email and group discussions. Keep your work and hobby communications separate.
* A choice of newsgroup clients. Most newsgroup clients have much better group communication features that email clients.
* Space saving. With newsgroup client you have the choice to store fully messages locally (handy for offline reading), or simply store headers only, and the body gets retrieved on demand.
* More control over your own messages. eg: You can delete your own posts. Very handy if you got carried away in a heated discussion (such a frequent occurrence in the FPC mailing lists), and would actually prefer to rather remove such a post 5 or 10 minutes later when you cooled down a bit.
* No idiotic "spam filtering" applied by your email provider. eg: Google and many others outright band ZIP attachments, even though they my be perfectly legit. ZIP attachments are not the only attachments they ban.
* You can easily keep your identify (eg: email address) hidden, yet still post messages. Some people like their privacy and don't have access to multiple email accounts.
* You can join a newsgroup at any time, yet easily tell your news client to download the whole history of the group, or just the last 1000 or 500 or whatever you want, messages. No need to go to a separate 3rd party website to search through historic conversations. It's all in one location.
* Many news clients support the "portable apps" concept, where everything can be run from a USB stick, and all settings and messages are stored on the USB stick. Perfect for those corporate environments (and keeping your work computer only work related). Also, with such a portable install, all message filters, message actions, last read statuses etc are all remembered and travels with you.
* No more receiving somebody else's "out of office" responses while they are on holiday.

Hey, we even have an excellent news client written in Object Pascal - just take a look an XanaNews! btw: XanaNews supports all the above benefits and much much more.

Github repository
https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/

XanaNews releases
https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/releases

Regards,
Graeme

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

NNTP has many other benefits too:

Graeme, I really agree with all of the items in your list! Good summary! :)

Neither do I, and I only get this 'maillist' as a newsgroup from Gmane :-)

Deleting spam manually from newsgroups means spam did get sent to other newsservers, and the user that was quick got it. However, newsservers usually have spamfilters too, that takes most from the start.

I work at such a company, where only Web is available though a proxy. And yes, in that case a webforum on top of a newsserver works fine. I run such a solution myself - mine does also include a mail <-> news gateway - so it can still be used as maillist also -- and still running on good old OS/2 ;-)

The most notorious problems with people subscribing from office accounts is IMHO the 'I'm not in the OFFICE now' - a pain for all maillists.

NNTP has many other benefits too:

[..]
I obliously agree with all of it ;-)

Available for all the OS/platforms that FPC supports ?

Anyway, I agree, that newsservers are the best for this, so it is nice, that all FPC maillists are on Gmane now.
Unfortunately, that have been some talks about stopping the Gmane service, so it would be nice to see fpc lists on a more permanent newsserver.

Allan.

Does this nntp client compile with fpc? It's written in delphi, and I've been unable to find a legitimate copy of delphi even though I've searched for one for years. Either I'm not looking in the right places, or nobody is selling one. I'm not interested in paying $1500 for the delphi replacement, even if it does run on linux.
At one point (roughly 10 years ago) I did get delphi as a free download from the french site for borland, but as I recall, it was only a trial, though I don't remember it ever timing out, of course, that was on an xp machine, that no longer behaves well enough to copy things to/from it. I'll need to yank the hd and put it in an external case if I'm to find that download again.

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On 10/30/2016 06:36 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
[...]

what?! no linux or BSD flavor? i'm shocked and kinda disappointed, graeme :(

By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface to Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue. It was a while since I read it so things may have changed. (I use GMANE NNTP myself of course.)

what?! no linux or BSD flavor? i'm shocked and kinda disappointed

XanaNews is a Delphi only application at the moment, and has many Windows specific API calls. I am very tempted at starting a FPC/LCL/fpGUI port though. Good news is, the current version runs perfectly under WINE using Linux or FreeBSD.

Regards,
Graeme

Travis Siegel wrote

Does this nntp client compile with fpc?

No, at the moment it is a Delphi only project, but as I mentioned in another reply, I am very tempted at starting a FPC and LCL/fpGUI port. It does run perfectly under WINE though - that's how I'm using it under FreeBSD.

It's written in delphi, and I've been unable to find a legitimate copy of delphi even though I've searched for one for years.

Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the moment. I downloaded a copy and can make it available for download if Embarcadero doesn't offer it any more. I haven't installed it yet (I don't really use Delphi at all any more), but in the Lazarus Forum's they mention that it is working well, and Zeos components can be installed without trouble.

Regards,
Graeme

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the moment. I downloaded a copy and can make it available for download if Embarcadero doesn't offer it any more.

The fact that they offered the software as a free download for personal use does not give you the right to redistribute that software yourself. Use and (re)distribution are two separate things under copyright.

Please do not offer or encourage infringing on Embarcadero's copyrights on our mailing lists.

Jonas

Bo Berglund wrote

By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface to Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression that Gmane was going to close down completely. Nice to hear that part of it (the most important part) is still going to continue.

Regards,
Graeme

Allan wrote

Deleting spam manually from newsgroups means spam did get sent to other newsservers, and the user that was quick got it.

Hosting a private news server like I do, there are no upstream news servers. What you describe is common in Usenet, but that is not what I'm suggesting.

However, newsservers usually have spamfilters too,

That's correct. Plus one could go a step further and require registration and user/password authentication to connect to a news server, but I prefer not to have the latter. It the ten years that I've been running my news server, I have never had spam messages - just call me lucky! ;-)

I work at such a company, where only Web is available though a proxy.

Would a SSL+NNTP connection also be blocked by such a proxy? I would imagine it wouldn't. So that might also be an option.

Such proxy's are totally ridiculously in any case. Everything gets piped via HTTP these days, so such proxies or port 80 only firewalls are just a "make believe" protection.

I run such a solution myself - mine does also include a mail <-> news gateway - so it can still be used as maillist also

Another option I would prefer not to implement. The other nice thing about news clients I didn't mention - they tend to default to plain text messages. Contrary to some beliefs, HTML mail doesn't contribute anything towards a discussion, it only introduces possibilities of email tracking, javascript viruses and bloats the messages sizes 10-fold.

> XanaNews releases > HTTP://github.com/graemeg/xananews/releases Available for all the OS/platforms that FPC supports ?

See my other replies.

Regards,
Graeme

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

XanaNews is a Delphi only application at the moment, and has many Windows specific API calls.

Saying that, it uses Indy 10 for communications, and Indy 10 works perfectly under FPC.

Regards,
Graeme

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the moment.

The promotion is still on offer.

https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter/promotional-download

They even allow "limited commercial use" with it. I don't know the details though.

Even TMS Software jumped on to this band wagon, and is offering TMS Aurelius for free, for the Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition. Offer valid until 30 Nov 2016.

http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/aureliusfree.asp

Regards,
Graeme

In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said:

They even allow "limited commercial use" with it. I don't know the details though.

iirc up to Eur/$ 1000 turnover. I don't know if you can use it in a big corporation inhouse to send 3 values to your PLC via serial though (since how to calculate turnover in that case?)

There's copies on eBay occasionally, although one obviously has to be careful that it's legitimate and can be registered (if that's still mandatory).

However the real question is not so much the version of the language and VCL that's been used, but how many extra libraries etc. have been pulled in that are either no longer available or aren't going to work with FPC/Lazarus.

Frankly, I've always found the standard Mozilla family of clients adequate.

Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote

have been pulled in that are either no longer available or aren't going to work with FPC/Lazarus.

In the case of XanaNews, the two primary components is use are Indy and VirtualTreeview. Both are supported by FPC. I don't see the point of using VirtualTreeview though, so if I do go ahead with the port, I'll probably remove that dependency. There are other minor components in use, but they are custom written and included with XanaNews source code
- easy to port of simply replaced with standard components. The other obstacle is multiple Win32 API calls and RichEdit.dll usage. I can't remember exactly for what usage the Win32 API call was used, but it shouldn't be hard to de-tangle - maybe just time consuming. The RichEdit.dll usage is easy to remove too.

There as already been some discussion regarding what is needed to port XanaNews. You are welcome to read about them on my news server, where I host the official XanaNews support newsgroup too.

server: geldenhuys.co.uk
port: 119
newsgroup: xananews.talk

Frankly, I've always found the standard Mozilla family of clients adequate.

I would normally agree, and indeed it is the longest standing clients I have been using for many years. Thunderbird does come with its bugs though, and I unfortunately often stumble over the same ones for the last 8 years. eg: unable to save an attachment (randomly occurs), or moving a message from one account to another account, I loose any attachments.

Saying that, XanaNews has some excellent newsgroup features, very fast, and light on memory.

Regards,
Graeme

They still offer it, but it's a 30-day trial, and it appears that once you get the trial activation number, it's good for any of the products, only I (using a screen reader) couldn't select which product I wanted, so it downloaded and installed their c++ suite of tools instead of the delphi ones, so I'm stuck with a delphi free computer (still). Millions of folks may use the thing, but I can tell you none of those millions use a screen reader, because I can't get the thing to do much, though it does seem usable on the surface, as I dig into the various functionality, I find it's not quite as accessible as it first appears <sigh> I think I'll stick to my text editors, and command-line tools.

(and not use their c++ the 30 day trial, it's
still almost 300 bucks for their intro version, which admittedly is way better than 1400 they want for the pro version, and if I were actually making money at this, it would be a worthwhile investment, but since it's a personal thing, it's not really worth it, when there's other alternatives that are more accessible for me.

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Can't find the right message to reply to, so same thread, here we go.

Thanks for the link to the free promo version of delphi. It works nicely, and I now have a fully registered version of delphi on my system, and although it works well enough, I have trouble with too much junk onscreen, but that's normal for visual editors, so I'm used to that, and will find work arounds eventually. I've not tried the whole lazarus ide yet, because I'm sure it wasn't designed with accessibility in mind, and it's generally more frustrating than anything else for me trying new environments that have little or no accessibility. Most often, this is a result of the designers not being aware such needs/processes exist), so there's no blame there. I've been an fpc user for years, though for the last 10+ years I've been windows free, so didn't care that lazarus probably didn't work with screen readers. :) I think it's only fair to give it a fair shake though before I begin complaining about it.

Since it's opensource, I may load it up, and attempt to fix said issues so it will work for others who might want to use it. Generally, it's just a matter of labeling buttons properly, and identifying areas that may not be recognized by the screen readers as things like scroll areas, pull downs, opening tabs, and the like. Once those items are properly identified to windows, they generally work well. Of course, sometimes, design issues (such as screen layout) prevent screen readers from working well, but those are rare). Anyway, I've hijacked this thread long enough. I just wanted to say thanks for the pointers.

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Travis Siegel wrote

It works nicely, and I now have a fully registered version of delphi

I couldn't even get past the installation of Delphi 10.1 (Berlin). For two hours it kept giving me an error "can't communicate to the license server bla bla bla", yet my internet connection was working just fine. The joys of modern commercial software (a single point of failure) - so I deleted the installation file.

Regards,
Graeme

Hi,

I accidentally rejected the message below by Allan because I thought I was looking at the
moderation queue of the fpc-pascal list. So here it is.

Jonas
FPC mailing lists admin

I really don't care, if his web interface goes away - never used it. If he really would stop the gmane newsserver, I would just link the mailinglist to my own newsserver, as I have done with lots of other mailinglists, over the years :-)

I think the discussion about which model is the right one for FPC is stupid, as no one will ever agree on anything.

OTOH, I have been running my own newsserver for 15 years - with a gateway to a mailinglist server, and a very simple Webinterface on top of the newsserver - and it has been running that way all the time on OS/2 ! Please don't tell me - that there is not very simple solutions for that ( and hopefully 15 years newer :-) ) for nix or win.

What I'm saying here is, that I would hope, that we could persuade the FPC Team to set up such a solution - so that everybody would be happy.

It really do have a lot of advantages - especially if running mailinglists and webforuns as separate things - because that would split the community - the other solution joins forces.

Allan.

...

Allan.

Sounds like one could set up such a server on a Raspberry Pi (Linux Debian type). I am running all kinds of stuff on RPi, for example Lazarus/FPC, a VPN server and more.

Do you have any advice on how to install an NNTP server on Linux? I have never looked at that before. It would need to subscribe to lists using its own dedicated mail account, right?

Bo Berglund wrote

Do you have any advice on how to install an NNTP server on Linux?

I have been running the sn NNTP Server for the last 10 years. For the first 6 it was on Linux, and for the last 4 on FreeBSD. I've been running sn v0.3.8 all that time.

http://patrik.iki.fi/sn/

It is a very small and simple NNTP server for low to medium amount of newsgroups, and is dead simple to maintain.

Regards,
Graeme