I would like to propose a discussion about "What is the relevance of Object Pascal nowadays".
I don't want waste your time. I just want to know if we are growing and being more relevant or not.

I use Object Pascal (mostly FPC, some old Delphi) in production to make real applications. But we are seeing more and more "new frameworks", "new technologies" and new languages that are become more relevant.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

What do you think?

I think, new langs are for other tasks. Go- for web servers; Rust- maybe concurrent or not (used for browser). JS based langs- for web. Kotlin- for Java. 90% of new langs - for other tasks.

Marcos Douglas B. Santos wrote

I would like to propose a discussion about "What is the relevance ofObject Pascal nowadays".I don't want waste your time. I just want to know if we are growingand being more relevant or not. I use Object Pascal (mostly FPC, some old Delphi) in production tomake real applications. But we are seeing more and more "newframeworks", "new technologies" and new languages that are become morerelevant. What do you think?

We are, but for in-house services rather than selling stuff for outside use.

If challenged I call it a 4GL, in the vein of the 4GLs that were popular in the late 80s and early 90s. It's an exceptionally good tool for certain types of job, and the fact that it is descended from Pascal is irrelevant.

And Object Pascal is for... desktop?

We can do almost everything with Pascal but people don't see in that way.

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

I use it almost exclusively on the server. Webservice, REST related stuff.

But there are many domains where Object Pascal still works very well.

Michael.

I use Lazarus for all my applications. Device monitoring software, our account mang. and ERP applc.

2017-10-27 16:32 GMT+03:00 Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus <

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Michael Van Canneyt wrote

I use it almost exclusively on the server. Webservice, REST related stuff. But there are many domains where Object Pascal still works very well.

You've been doing a great job on fcl-web (thanks). I have REST services running on Windows IIS with FastCGI.

I would like to ask you: Why not use Node.js, Go, or even Java? Is it just because you know more Pascal or, also, because you have some advantages using it on the server?

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

Celâl Emre ÖZ wrote

I use Lazarus for all my applications. Device monitoring software, our account mang. and ERP applc.

Me too. The "problem" is find more people to work with Object Pascal. Do you have this problem in your company?

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

2017-10-27 14:26 GMT+02:00 Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus :

We use Object Pascal (FPC) to develop games, with my "Castle Game Engine", as part of the "Cat-astrophe Games" studio. We make Android and iOS games ("Escape from the Universe" is our main title now, with iOS release hopefully in ~2 weeks), and we plan to release a Steam game next year. So, both mobile and desktop.

Regards,
Michalis

I'm starting my company based entirely in Lazarus. It's an ERP application, with desktop and web modules.

I believe we can do (almost) everything with FPC/Lazarus.

*Aurimenes Apolônio Silva*
Desenvolvedor de Software
Fones: (81) 99935-9066 / 4101-5689

2017-10-27 10:39 GMT-03:00 Celâl Emre ÖZ via Lazarus <

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I use exclusively for "real" applications, on every kind of projects, desktop, command line tools, CGIs...

Some times I'm forced to use C/C++ toolkits (because there's no alternative), some times Python (for interfacing Libreoffice UNO) or HTML/CSS/JS for client side web, but apart from that, I always use FPC/Lazarus for *real* apps.

Regards,

I have used Free Pascal and Lazarus for several production systems over the last decade or so.  The most recent being for the UK Ordnance Survey:

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-and-government/help-and-support/navigation-technology/os-net/grid-inquest.html

The web interface also uses a DLL behind the scenes that is written in Free Pascal too.  I personally prefer to use Object Pascal for any project and only swap to some other language if I have to!

Kind regards,

Paul Michell

Where to start ?

Go is a very nice language, but is very difficult to get to work with external libraries. Writing imports can be next to impossible. Our server needs to do LOTS of things that simply cannot be done in Go, since Go doesn't have the necessary functionality (or libraries, or modules) so we'd need to offload that to C libs, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Java would be a possibility, but

a) I don't know Java so well. Java is HUGE.

b) Then you need to deal with the Java VM and Tomcat and whatnot. Not pleasant. Recently we had a java service completely unresponsive for 30 seconds, it was doing GC... Not is nice for some scripting, but IMO Javascript is not suitable for large applications. Complete absence of type checking or any form of compilation is a disaster for large projects.

Additionally, when using Node.js, you almost inevitably come into contact with npm. We built some mobile apps using a web runtime, and typical usage for Node.js is packaging of the app. This typically uses npm.

npm pulled in 1200+ npm packages (100+mb), to pack an application of 1200 lines of javascript.
Not a joke. I actually checked. And to pack an application in essence means: creating a zip. IMO the people using node.js and npm are deluded, to allow such a mess.

Suffices that 1 of the 1200 packages for what reason whatsoever is broken, retracted or whatnot: the whole system comes crashing down...

(The upcoming pas2js can target node.js, and I am confident you will not need npm.)

To make matters worse, javascript developers have no sense of time. They actually think that completely breaking backwards compatibility after 2 years is OK. For example, the change of Angular to Angular 2 (and subsequent changes) made me decide that Angular is unsuitable for development - despite all the nifty features.

The average lifetime of applications I make is many many years. So, backwards compatibility is VERY important.

So.
For all these reasons, I use Object Pascal. I can take my 10 year old application, recompile, and be reasonably sure it will still work.

Michael.

I use Delphi almost exclusively, and I write desktop programs (some command-line stuff too). The only exception is a small amount of Perl where someone had already written some code, but even that is moving to using FreeImage and NetCDF libraries with Delphi 2009 and a very little Delphi 10.1 for 64-bit benefits. My only Lazarus program has been a digital clock for the Raspberry Pi.

Many of my users are still on VB6!

Yeah, that is a excellent case study.
I believe most game programmers are using C/C++ and Lua. Is it difficult to you find Pascal programmers?

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

Thank you for shared this.
I didn't understand when you said "DLL behind the scenes" using web interface. If you can explain, I would appreciate.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Aurimenes Apolonio wrote

I'm starting my company based entirely in Lazarus. It's an ERP application, with desktop and web modules. I believe we can do (almost) everything with FPC/Lazarus.

+1
I agree.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

WOW... Actually, you have good reasons. I liked.

I am asking this because sometimes I cannot make a project if I say that will be coded in Object Pascal.
I have heard a client saying: We use C# or <choose one>. We don't have more Pascal programmers to maintain this.

To develop desktop apps, it's not a problem. But if it will be a web app, could be.
I will use your text, next time. :)

About performance, do you believe that FastCGI is good or even better than these other technologies?

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

27.10.2017 5:32 PM "Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus" <

napisał(a):

Yeah, that is a excellent case study.
I believe most game programmers are using C/C++ and Lua. Is it difficult to you find Pascal programmers?

We're an indie game studio, which practically just means that we're small. So we did not yet need to hire additional programmers. A few persons work on a project -- one full-time dev (me), one full-time graphic artist (for 2d and 3d..) and as we go along we often hire additional people for art and sound.

From the game communities and conferences, I see that most game programmers

right now use Unity 3d and C#.

From talking with other programmers, I see that almost everyone has a basic

knowledge of Pascal, so that was very good. But many people don't know things beyond Turbo Pascal features, and they only heard about Delphi but don't know if it even still exists. So you need to explain to them how stuff like classes looks like in Object Pascal -- which is easy, since they know these concepts from other languages, you only need to show them the syntax in Pascal (this is how I started to write my "Modern Pascal Introduction for Programmers").

Also, in this field, people care a lot about the game engine features, and the programming language is only one factor in this -- so even those that were doubtful about the usage of Pascal, were still interested in Castle Game Engine features.

Bottom line: when we'll be hiring, I'll definitely not limit the search to Pascal programmers. It seems you can take a good programmer from any OOP language, and if (s)he's really good, (s)he will pick up Pascal along the way of learning the game engine. I know that many Unity3d programmers learned C# along the way of learning Unity3d (come to think of it, so did I :) ).

Regards,
Michalis
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I'm using Object Pascal to develop a lot of real SCADA applications. You can see some of then in:

http://www.pascalscada.com/pb/screenshots/

Some applications are made by me or my company (Eletromep), others by friends or people that have contributed with PascalSCADA project.

2017-10-27 14:12 GMT-02:00 Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus <

Il 27/10/2017 14:26, Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus ha scritto:

We're working in the field of automatic machines. From textile machines to printer post-processing equipments (mainly in the security printers field), from coffee roasting machines to chain wear monitoring equipment. We do not usually deploy software, but rather we sell control equipments which are then integrated by the final manufacturer in the machine.

Our equipments usually include custom embedded controllers and a supervisor which may range from an industrial grade PC to a Raspberry PI. It provides both the human interface and the real-time high-level process control.

We're also frequently asked to integrate our supervisor into the factory data network both to provide production data (for statistical purposes, quality assurance, and security) and to fetch process information when appropriate. This leads to supplying also small servers which do handle network protocols, Data Base handling, creating Reports etc.

We found today's Object Pascal and Lazarus to be the most cost effective solution, for a number of reasons. Mainly:

* Object pascal syntax makes it easier to detect programmer errors at compile time, thus strongly reducing the debug time.
* Being most projects quite similar and with very short development time allowed, we need readable and self documenting sources, making it easy for anyone to modify project A into project B.
* For the same reason, re-usability of code for us is a must. Again Object Pascal is a winner by this POV.
* Always for the same reason we need a RAD tool, and Lazarus IDE is again a winner.
* We need to interface with our real-time framework with predictable timing, and this rules out most of the "modern" languages.
* Given the relative stability of the Object Pascal language, we may take advantage of a huge amount of code we have developed in the past. I've just ported to Lazarus a program which was originally developed in the 90's with Delphi 3!

Many of those reasons apply also to Delphi, but we dropped Delphi long ago because:

1. Primarily, we need Linux support, because of the real-time requirements, which aren't achievable in Windows environment. OS-X isn't an option because we need industrial grade PC's.
2. Secondarily, Lazarus IDE is light years better than Delphi IDE.

For sake of completeness, I must add that our real-time framework and the real-time tasks are written in C. This was a must when it had to be part of a patched Linux kernel, running in kernel space. Now that RT_PREEMP has reached maturity and has made its way into the mainline kernel we've been able to move the stuff to user space. Therefore we're rewriting most of it in Object Pascal, to take advantage of a much lower development and maintenance cost.

Giuliano

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2017-10-27 14:18 GMT-02:00 Giuliano Colla via Lazarus <

:

When I started the PascalSCADA project, these are the reasons why I choose Lazarus/FPC. Now, some years ago, I'm happy with my choice, and it's the main tool number here in my company.

The best regards,

Fabio Luis Girardi
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If you are looking into all "new" stuff, it's nothing more than turning into Homer Simpson ("Oh, shiny!"). You spend more time to try and stay atop of all the latest fads but don't get anything real done. There might be the one or two things that some of those new gadgets can do better/easier but in the long run, barely any of them is of significance, by any count, in a few years...

I can do everything I need to do (and then some) with FreePascal/Lazarus. Yes, there are some areas where a bit more work is needed, like being able to create Android/iOS applications with Lazarus in the way it can be done with Delphi, or creating applications for macOS. Or coding for embedded stuff with AVR based boards. Something that IMHO should be put more focus on than adding the latest fads from other programming languages to the compiler, just because some people THINK they need this.

Ralf

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Michalis Kamburelis wrote

and we plan to release a Steam game next year.

Hope you tell us when it is available :)

We use Lazarus/Free Pascal to build all of our production applications. These are basically instrumentation packages and data loggers for large machines used in automotive manufacturing and quality control. It’s cross platform (Linux/Windows), fast and easy to use and maintain. What’s not to like?

Be well,
Dave H.

On 27 October 2017 at 20:26, Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus <

I'm no longer a commercial developer. However, I continue to carry Lazarus around on a USB key. I frequently work away from home, but where-ever I am, whatever I'm working on, I can develop tools to make data processing easier. Why Laz/fpc? wiki/forum/mailing list always have the answers, and there's a great community. Lazarus & Freepascal are both strong mature tools. Wonderful set of packages ship with Lazarus - far more than I need. I also carry around CCR (I recently used fpspreadsheet for the first time - awesome product). Only library I use that's not provided as part of the Lazarus package is ZEOS for it's Oracle connection.

I keep being surprised by Lazarus. Just keeps going from strength to strength.

Mike
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2017-10-27 13:12 GMT-03:00 Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus <

I have similar issue. I'm looking for third party companies to accelerate development of my current app (used in production by around 200 people a day) and they all say that is obsolete technology and will not find programmers to maintain

The current Delphi (sad) state is not helping...

Luiz
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Em 27 de out de 2017 21:58, "Daithi Haxton via Lazarus" <

escreveu:

We use Lazarus/Free Pascal to build all of our production applications. These are basically instrumentation packages and data loggers for large machines used in automotive manufacturing and quality control. It’s cross platform (Linux/Windows), fast and easy to use and maintain. What’s not to like?

Hi Dave!

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Hello,

I work with a project (Simba: http://wizzup.org/simba/) that was written in FreePascal using Lazarus. One of the main issues with Simba was the necessity of creating wrappers for most of what needed to be accomplished. On a more personal note, I find Lazarus very useful for quick GUI prototypes, but the lack of supporting infrastructure makes it hard to use sometimes.

I appreciate the development that does take place and wish more could. I have tried to find ways to help off and on, but all the problems that are left are very involved.

A more impressive contribution to the list was planned but I forgot what I was going to write. However, if you wanted to know if what you do is useful, then yes, I think it is.

Cheers,
R0b0t1.

Marcos Douglas B. Santos wrote

I would like to propose a discussion about "What is the relevance of Object Pascal nowadays". I don't want waste your time. I just want to know if we are growing and being more relevant or not.

For many years I have advocated first Delphi, then FreePascal/Lazarus as a teaching tool for both high school and introductory university. Historically, Delphi/Lazarus offered superior IDE experience, while the language itself was both beginner-friendly and powerful when learned completely.

Sadly, while on IDE front other IDEs are catching up (for example, form designers in both Visual Studio 2017 and latest Qt are almost as good, and in some aspects better),
the language continues to lag behind so much that even 8th graders are starting to complain about missing features.
Older teachers who prefer Pascal syntax moved to PascalABC, which displaced perhaps 90% of FPC usage in Russian high schools.

Finally, FPC became almost completely unsuitable for competitive programming, which drives away influential part of next programmers generation. At the last year International Olympiad in Informatics I have given a passionate speech
against excluding Free Pascal from a list of available languages, and succeeded in postponing that decision for a few years, but the writing is still on the wall.

So reluctantly I started to phase out FPC/Lazarus in my work in favor of PascalABC/Python for high school and С++/C# for university. For the record, C# is the only language in that list that I like.

Il 28/10/2017 02:42, Luiz Americo Pereira Camara via Lazarus ha scritto:

You might tell them that tombstones are obsolete technology (stone age), but nobody has managed to find a more appropriate one for that purpose. The attempts to replace them with an iPhone app appear to have failed up to now!
The issue is never to use the most modern technology, but the most appropriate one.
If their programmers are unable to cope with an appropriate technology, but only with the latest one, they'll become useless, as soon as the latest technology is replaced by the next whatever.

However keep in mind that using an appropriate technology not widely used, has its advantages: you beat the competition of all those who are using the latest and inappropriate, because you'll provide a better result at a lower cost.

Giuliano

Our devices are mostly proprietary DSP boards, usually connected via USB but sometimes still serial (Synapse is a great lib for the latter, BTW). We use mostly AB PLC’s, but sometimes Mitsubishi or Siemens, and we communicate to them either via a vendor communication tool (DDE and RS-LINX or TopServer) or using the excellent libplctag (see github) to talk directly. We’ve looked as Pascal SCADA for HMI work, and will be investigating it further in the future, I can assure you. The other really nice thing about using Lazarus in our context is the ability to load the development environment directly onto the target machine and debug in a real environment - with Visual Studio or other commercial tools that’s just not practical due to licensing/cost.

Be well,
Dave H.

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As we can see, we can do everything with Object Pascal. Unfortunately, the market don't have the same vision.

I totally agree with you about the second item.

That is other excellent case study...
Maybe we all could build a website to write those cases and provide more information about Object Pascal nowadays.

Do you have problems to find new Pascal programmers?

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

I totally agree with you. That is one of the reasons that I continue using Object Pascal.
I work in a company but I work as a freelancer/consultor as well. I use Object Pascal in both cases, but as I said in other email, sometimes it is difficult choose Object Pascal to build software for my clients because they think that it's an obsolete technology.

+1
I agree, again.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

I see many developers working with Object Pascal in similar cases: Machines, embedded, etc.
That's really cool... However, is a kind of niche, right?

What’s not to like?

:)

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

That is my main issue and I don't know how to solve this using Object Pascal.

The current Delphi (sad) state is not helping...

I agree. It's not stable and the price...

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Yes, but such niches are *nice* so if anyone wants to help out please join me: www.ControlPascal.com

On Saturday, October 28, 2017, Alexander Klenin via Lazarus <

starting

to complain about missing features. Older teachers who prefer Pascal syntax moved to PascalABC, which displaced perhaps 90% of FPC usage in Russian high schools.

I think this really captures what I wanted to say. Rapid development as a design methodology seems to have been publicly discredited and forgotten about, yet people still continue to buy Delphi. The basic design principles that FreePascal and Lazarus implement are still relevant but the presentation is a little rough around the edges.

Finally, FPC became almost completely unsuitable for competitive

programming,

I found something similar. Do you think you can add to your explanation of why it is no longer competitive?

Cheers,
R0b0t1.
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At first popularity declined because Pascal did not have efficient data structures and algorithms in standard library (which is ironic for a language introduced in a book named "Algorithms
+ Data Structures").
Now, community simply forgot about it.
I heard children use "you program in Pascal" as a taunt meaning "you are not well-educated" :)

The OS programmers are using a Windows server (I think with ASP or some such MS technology).  From this they can call the Windows DLL version of the transform, then pass the results back to the HTML output.  I was not involved in that part of the project, but there is definitely some Free Pascal generated code running on their server!

Best regards, Marcos Douglas

Alexander Klenin wrote

I heard children use "you program in Pascal" as a taunt meaning "you are not well-educated":)

And the irony is that THEY are probably not well educated on the subject. :-D

Regards,
Graeme

Giuliano Colla wrote

2. Secondarily, Lazarus IDE is light years better than Delphi IDE.

That is so TRUE. I'm working full-time in a Delphi job again, using XE3 which sadly shows the same issues I saw in a trial version of XE10 - so in all the "new versions" the same bugs still exist in the latest product release. What are Delphi developers actually paying for with their monthly subscriptions??? Clearly nothing is happing in the IDE front. The joys of the "ransom ware" product model being introduced all over the world.

Regards,
Graeme

Marcos Douglas B. Santos wrote

As we can see, we can do everything with Object Pascal. Unfortunately, the market don't have the same vision.

To be honest, sometimes it is not enough just to be able to do everything other languages do.

For example: With Java and Spring Boot I can implement a Enterprise grade web application (that can scale over multiple servers etc) with embedded web server, object persistence, high grade web security, MVC based web UI all in about 5 minutes. Yes, it will be a simple Address Book style application, but considering all the features that application has - it's good damn impressive for 5 minutes of effort.

I can't see the above being possible with today's FPC and Lazarus.

My point is, it is often the speed at which you can develop projects that makes a big difference - not just the ability of the language or IDE.

Regards,
Graeme

Michael Thompson wrote

I'm no longer a commercial developer. However, I continue to carry Lazarus around on a USB key. I frequently work away from home, but where-ever I am, whatever I'm working on, I can develop tools to make data processing easier.

I do the same. I have a portable HD with all my environment that is synchronized every week. It is simple to maintain and portable. I've never tried do the same with C# or Java environments... :)

Why Laz/fpc? wiki/forum/mailing list always have the answers, and there's a great community. Lazarus & Freepascal are both strong mature tools.

I agree.
But, being a "advocate of the devil" and considering other languages/environments, don't you agree that Lazarus & Freepascal could be just a "drop of water in the whole ocean"?

Yeah. Lazarus and FPC is growing faster nowadays.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Hmm, I believe you're talking about ActiveX. These ASP pages could call this `components` directly.
Thanks for explain that.

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

Yeah, of course they are. I said that only to understand better. Thanks.

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

PS. For me the website is down.

Maybe using the next version of fcl-web... but I don't know. But even if FPC could do the same in 1 minute, do you think Java developers may see Object Pascal with a different thinking? I don't think so.

My point is, it is often the speed at which you can develop projects that makes a big difference - not just the ability of the language or IDE.

In the other hand, we can to other things faster and better using Object Pascal than other languages.
But, for me, market doesn't see in that way. They don't (much) care if you are using the *right* tool for a job. They — most — want to know if this job could be make by anyone else, not only *specialists*, even if the project has quality and was delivered faster.

This is a wrong thinking, but it's true and many companies.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Marcos Douglas B. Santos wrote

This is a wrong thinking, but it's true and many companies.

Indeed, the ability to get [skilled] replacement developers is very important to most companies. That plays as much part of the decision process as the speed of development.

[...this part sent in private...]

Regards,
Graeme

Michael Van Canneyt wrote

... Recently we had a java service completely unresponsive for 30 seconds, it was doing GC... Not acceptable at all.

[on a side note - no need for a response]

I believe that could be down to a configuration issue or something else
- not necessarily the Java language or VM or GC to be blamed for that. I say that because otherwise Stock Exchanges (they love Java), real-time robotics, banking (they really really love Java) etc would not be using Java... And here in the UK 8 out of every 10 Java jobs was one of these business sectors. At least that was my personal experience. Those business sectors would definitely not put up with 30 seconds of unresponsive services. Imagine the London Stock Exchange has a 30 second outage - that will be like a lifetime to them!

Interestingly you mentioned Tomcat. My new employer has plenty of issues with Embarcadero's License Server software - Java based and runs under Tomcat. Sometimes the license server process hangs - which invalidates all Delphi instances in the company (that's an issue for another time). The License Server in our company runs on a Windows machine and that process hangs so badly that Windows Server itself can't kill it. The Windows server needs to be rebooted to resolve the issue! So is that down to bad programming (possible), a bug in Tomcat (possible, but unlikely considering how popular it is and used - the issue would have been well known if it existed), a bug in Windows or something else. Who knows.

Regards,
Graeme

Am 27.10.2017 18:46 schrieb "Ralf Quint via Lazarus" <

:

I can do everything I need to do (and then some) with FreePascal/Lazarus. Yes, there are some areas where a bit more work is needed, like being able to create Android/iOS applications with Lazarus in the way it can be done with Delphi, or creating applications for macOS. Or coding for embedded stuff with AVR based boards. Something that IMHO should be put more focus on than adding the latest fads from other programming languages to the compiler, just because some people THINK they need this.

Please note that the people working on the compiler and those working on the Lazarus IDE are nearly completely not the same. So comfortably creating apps for Android and iOS as well as support for 64-bit macOS apps using Cocoa is orthogonal to language features.
The only part that tangents the compiler team would be the extended AVR support, but even then you need people that are interested in it (e.g. I had worked on the m68k code generator because I wanted, not because someone told me to).

Regards,
Sven
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Am 28.10.2017 21:18 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus" <

:

Giuliano Colla wrote

2. Secondarily, Lazarus IDE is light years better than Delphi IDE.

That is so TRUE. I'm working full-time in a Delphi job again, using XE3 which sadly shows the same issues I saw in a trial version of XE10 - so in all the "new versions" the same bugs still exist in the latest product release. What are Delphi developers actually paying for with their monthly subscriptions??? Clearly nothing is happing in the IDE front. The joys of the "ransom ware" product model being introduced all over the world.

They all probably don't know what they're missing out on :P

Regards,
Sven
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Am using FreePascal to create convenience utilities for a web-server applications. (Due to the limitations of the server technology) (here's an example of such utility: https://github.com/skalogryz/docusign though there are more, but the code is not public)

Last year delivered an iOS game. Pure freepascal.
Didn't have enough power/time/will to finish and release Android version though.
However, for game development, the technology doesn't matter, marketing does.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Hello,
I earning my money as delphi developer (now 20years).In the freetime I support Lazarus/FPC. The system I wrote (in the company) is in-house software usedby about 150 users per day. (it's built with D7) D7 was fast/stable. We bought several new versions of Delphi in the past 13years butnone of the new versions was as handy as D7.But now I am working with Delphi XE 10.2 Tokyo and I must say it's very ok! I can recommend it.I would say they are back again :-) ( Hopefully they will remove the dependency to .NET-stuff )

Now let's talk a little about Lazarus...It's incredible which progress this project has made!The recent improvements in the IDE and Installer area (fpcupdeluxe and online package manager) makethings really better for new users. To attract more/new users to Object-Pascal "universe" the following things would help:  (applies for both Delphi and Lazarus)

A) a way to give a whole project from one developer to another developer. (no fiddeling around with missing packages/components/paths/environment-path).    e.g. a Menu-Option "Export-Project" which creates a bundle with all necessary files)B) Examples that work out of the box. ( when I choose examples in Lazarus, half of them do not work).C) Beginner Videos.

Sam

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Samuel Herzog wrote

B) Examples that work out of the box. ( when I choose examples in Lazarus, half of them do not work).

We would need a list of those.
I remember I went through the examples some time ago and they compiled and also worked somehow.
I tested only on Linux (GTK2 and QT), don't know about other widgetsets.

Juha

Hi

My use is probably just another nice niche:

Creating a nice GUI wrapper in Lazarus/Object Pascal for heavy numerical simulation routines written in Fortran.

Michael.

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Interesting.

B) Examples that work out of the box. ( when I choose examples in Lazarus, half of them do not work).

This is sadly true.

I have come back to Pascal (I previously used Borland Pascal a lot, but not Delphi), I love Lazarus, and I needed to see current day examples of things, but some of them fail to build or crash instantly. I don't have a list.

I also find very confusing that libraries for similar purposes exist and it is not easy to choose one. I could not see documentation on what a library to use and which not to use.

C) Beginner Videos.

I don't like videos very much, dunno. I prefer docs with photos. After all, code is text...

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

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Carlos E. R. wrote

B) Examples that work out of the box. ( when I choose examples in Lazarus, half of them do not work). This is sadly true.

Certainly not. I spent the previous hours checking all demos in the examples folder under Windows 10, and the vast majority of them is working. The only one I could not get around with is the fpdocmanager example with uses two units that I have never seen. A few issues with other examples were fixed.

Instead of complaining that examples are not working you should write a bugreport, and it will be fixed. It is a damn boring job looking through almost 100 demos...

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Well, I use Linux :-)

Of course not all examples fail, and maybe some were corrected since I tried.

Instead of complaining that examples are not working you should write a bugreport, and it will be fixed. It is a damn boring job looking through almost 100 demos...

Well, I can try, but I have no idea where/how to report bugs.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE Linux 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

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Hello friends,

On Sunday, October 29, 2017, Samuel Herzog via Lazarus <

13years but

none of the new versions was as handy as D7. But now I am working with Delphi XE 10.2 Tokyo and I must say it's very

ok! I can recommend it.

I would say they are back again :-) ( Hopefully they will remove the

dependency to .NET-stuff )

Now let's talk a little about Lazarus... It's incredible which progress this project has made! The recent improvements in the IDE and Installer area (fpcupdeluxe and

online package manager) make

things really better for new users. To attract more/new users to Object-Pascal "universe" the following

things would help: (applies for both Delphi and Lazarus)

A) a way to give a whole project from one developer to another developer.

(no fiddeling around with missing
packages/components/paths/environment-path).

e.g. a Menu-Option "Export-Project" which creates a bundle with all

necessary files)

This is something else I forgot to touch on in my dimwittedness.

My experience with a multi-user project (Simba) that targeted Windows/Linux was very poor. It was hard to keep the project in a state that made it buildable on both OSes or even multiple. Eventually these issues were overcome, but there still seems to be a lot of hidden complexity that makes it hard to create reproducible builds and help new developers set up an evironment.

Cheers,
R0b0t1.
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Hello friends,

On Sunday, October 29, 2017, Schindler Karl-Michael via Lazarus <

simulation routines written in Fortran.

I have seen thisna few places. Lazarus still has the best form designer I have used.

Cheers,
R0b0t1.
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Carlos E. R. wrote

Well, I use Linux :-)

I also use Linux and I have tested them, too.

Of course not all examples fail, and maybe some were corrected since I tried.

When did you try?

Well, I can try, but I have no idea where/how to report bugs.

You could for example list the broken examples here. That's what I asked earlier.
I doubt you will do it. Clearly this is yet another rant without substance. First Samuel Herzog pulls a complaint from his hat. Then you repeat it without testing.

Juha

[...] Well, I can try, but I have no idea where/how to report bugs.

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/How_do_I_create_a_bug_report

Mattias

Il 28/10/2017 16:45, Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus ha scritto:

Do you have problems to find new Pascal programmers?

Experienced Pascal programmers are hard to find here in Italy. But we've found that a good young programmer (usually trained in C) usually appreciates the beauty of Pascal language, becomes fond of it, and very quickly productive.
As in any case a new programmer must be trained to get acquainted with company software practices, the extra time required to grasp the fundamentals of Pascal is almost negligible.

Giuliano

In fact, this is a good strategy. But makes me thinking if is difficult to find C programmers as well.
The C language is old as Pascal. Why people continues learning C but not Pascal?

If Linux had been coded in Pascal, we might have a different history. :)

Regards,
Marcos Douglas

Giuliano Colla wrote

But we've found that a good young programmer (usually trained in C) usually appreciates the beauty of Pascal language, becomes fond of it, and very quickly productive.

The problem with that is they don't have the years of experience in problem solving skills, design etc. Yes they might pump out code pretty fast, but how good is that code in the long run.

Granted, everybody should be given a chance at some point so they can learn and improve.

Regards,
Graeme

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About a year ago or more.

Sorry, I didn't see it. In this thread? I don't read all threads.

I doubt you will do it. Clearly this is yet another rant without substance. First Samuel Herzog pulls a complaint from his hat. Then you repeat it without testing.

If you are really interested in me testing, I will test. I know for sure that some samples did not work, but I did not take notes.

Ok, I look now, randomly, at "testapp.lpi". Build fails at:

testapp.pas(38,2) Fatal: Cannot open include file "platform.inc"

sources are old, so I refresh them. [...] I do, but the error remains.

Project is at:

/usr/share/fpcsrc/packages/fv/examples/testapp.lpi

Missing file does exist, at:

/usr/share/doc/packages/fpc/examples/fv/examples/platform.inc /usr/share/fpcsrc/packages/fv/src/platform.inc

and I copied the tree to my home dir. I have not looked at what may be the cause, but doing so may be offtopic for this thread. Maybe the paths are broken because the project was copied to HOME. Maybe the project is not intended for Linux, I don't know.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

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Carlos E. R. wrote

About a year ago or more. ... /usr/share/fpcsrc/packages/fv/examples/testapp.lpi

Ok, this was about FPC examples. I assumed Lazarus examples because this is Lazarus list.
A year ago there may have been more broken Lazarus examples, too, but most of them are now checked.

It would make sense to report the FPC example issue.

Juha

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I don't really differentiate between the IDE and the compiler, sorry. I mean, I know they are different projects, but still... both have to work together. I don't remember what examples I have tried, I just went for the first one I could find with "open project". An .lpi file is a Lazarus project file, right?

And where does one report fpc issues such as that one, is it another mail list?

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

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I use FPC/Lazarus to write a program trading software to trade futures/options. I chose it because I need it to run on windows and (maybe in future) Linux and Mac OS.
Could not use Java,C# because garbage collection and JIT compiler might cause the program to freeze in the middle of critical trading, which is utterly unacceptable for trading.

FPC is also clean and easy to maintain and can actually do anything. I might lack some new syntax to speed up parallel programming or functional programming but those could still be achieved with a bit work. I don't want to invest in a new language just for a few new features but risk making some programming errors since I don't fully understand the language.
Also, new languages come and gone so fast. I remember Flash's language was hot some years ago but now discarded.

Also FPC's compile time is short compared to many other languages.

Dennis

Am 30.10.2017 00:14 schrieb "Carlos E. R. via Lazarus" <

:

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On Monday, 2017-10-30 at 00:59 +0200, Juha Manninen via Lazarus wrote:

I don't really differentiate between the IDE and the compiler, sorry. I mean, I know they are different projects, but still... both have to work together. I don't remember what examples I have tried, I just went for the first one I could find with "open project". An .lpi file is a Lazarus project file, right?

And where does one report fpc issues such as that one, is it another mail list?

Yes, it's fpc-pascal and you can find it here:
https://freepascal.org/maillist.var

Alternatively you can use the bug tracker that both projects share at https://bugs.freepascal.org/

Regards,
Sven
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Sven Barth wrote

Alternatively you can use the bug tracker that both projects share at https://bugs.freepascal.org/

FYI, those bugs should be reported against FPC trunk which already differs a lot from the release version, due to the slow release cycle.

Juha

Some people say the same about garbage collection, but others don't. They tell the code could be wrong.
But I agree with you.

Thanks for sharing this.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

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Oh, but I'm not going to install the trunk version, sorry.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

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Our ERP (version 3) was written in Lazarus + PostgreSQL.

2017-10-30 10:30 GMT-02:00 Carlos E. R. via Lazarus <

Alexsander Rosa wrote

Our ERP (version 3) was written in Lazarus + PostgreSQL.

Is it desktop or web?

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

RNGE 3 = desktop app, Windows and Linux.

We wrote a blog about the porting effort (from D7 to Lazarus): http://port2laz.blogspot.com.br/2011/01/news-from-front.html

2017-11-27 17:23 GMT-02:00 Marcos Douglas B. Santos via Lazarus <

D) A debugger that can debug TStringList.text and other properties with getter.