You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in contradiction of government's own policy <http://twitter.com/share>

http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123

Nice!

There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.

So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa. The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.

Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

thanks,
Dmitry

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Debate on here, if anyone's interested in contributing:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/565779-Delphi-and-MS-Office-forced-on-South-African-schools/page4

Well at least they are mandating Delphi.

Could be worse, could be Visual Basic...

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Ewwwwwwww:

"Python, PHP, Java, Javascript... any 21st Century language would be better than Delphi. Any. Any at all."

I just don't know what to say...

Nikolay
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I suspect is its a trick to introduce Linux by the back door. If their Delphi programs can easily be switched to Lazarus the software will be easy to convert to Linux and the Mac

3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as well, guys?

leledumbo wrote

3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as well, guys?

Yes, one of them would be me. (Rinkhals).

Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

"You get what you pay for" is a phrase I hear a lot.

vfclists . wrote

You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

One of the comments sum it up perfectly: "kickbacks rule once again... who gives a ---- about the kids..."

Lets just hope this was a bad joke.

Regards,
G.

Dave Coventry wrote

Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

The "MS Office mandate" is what is really confusing me. The South African government was always very pro to open source products and open standards. eg: using ODT file format for official government documents. The [Mark] Shuttleworth Foundation also did (or does - the last time I checked) fantastic work in South Africa, promoting open source and free alternatives like Ubuntu, Edubuntu, and setting up teaching centres etc.

But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has no idea what the other is doing!

Regards,
Graeme

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has no idea what the other is doing!

I'm afraid that corruption is rife in the Education Department, too, so some kind of ministerial incentive from Microsoft cannot be ruled out.

Makes the classic mistake of assuming there is no difference between chosing a certain approach/tool/whatever for educational purposes and the use of that particular approach/tool after graduation.

Remember, this is basic education.

One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives instant-gratification.

Marco van de Voort wrote

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives instant-gratification.

My view is that instant gratification is the key.

Once they see how easy it is to produce an application, some will look to develop the possibilities.

The ones that get side tracked by making the Forms pretty; well, they'll probably concentrate on web design.

Yes, that's true.
But as always when learning the best motivation is rapid success. And learning without beeing able to make use of it is not useful. So a developement envrionment that lets you create a GUI program quickly is neccessary IMO. Although the language is only one part (libraries and IDE are nearly as important) it is still usefull to choose a clear and easy to learn language so I also would recommend to use Pascal at School (and of course in "real life" too if possible).

The question is: Why *not* use Pascal?
There maybe constraints that forces you to use another language later on but at School this is not the case (in general).
And pupils should know how easy and clear a fast programming can be to judge all other awkward or slow languages so they *need* to know Pascal.

One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

What's a form worth without a task and event handlers?

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives instant-gratification.

Modern (portable) devices are GUI based, so that mastering a GUI is important. Not everybody likes to control the progress and results of some task by writing WriteLn statements, so that a GUI *in addition* to console applications is a good base for all students.

DoDi

we've been seeing this for what? 20 years, now? even m$ operates in the mind set of "a pretty interface trumps (unseen) sickness and disease" al la "yeah, i'd hit that unless someone tells me it has an STD... even then, i still might hit it" al la "we've redone the GUI to make it prettier but the seedy underworld of skiddies and hackers can still get in thru the same holes they've been using for the last decade" :lol: :angel_horns:

(essentially to all replyers)

The course changed from TP to Delphi (as tool) and suddenly a lot more time was spend on non-programming.

Not everything vaguely related (to IT) is part of a /programmer's/ course. We knew students could click around in GUIs just fine. That was not what the course was about.

Btw, the course abandonned TP because too many students were unfamiliar with the concept of console apps. Explaining it took a too large part of the course, and due to its (101) nature it had to be early in the curriculum.

> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives > instant-gratification. Modern (portable) devices are GUI based

I hope they use it in the Mobile development class then. This was not the mobile development class. This was introduction to programming (not UI design, not Mobile, not, not, ...) :-)

So the idea is that the students, euh, spend their time programming.

Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.

the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

thanks,
Dmitry
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Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from "Children" list of this page?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language#Historical>

Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section.

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev <

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Le 12/10/2013 13:36, Marco van de Voort a ?crit :

++++1

Antonio.

Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

IMHO the contrary is true.

Using Delphi (or Lazarus) you can concentrate on the problem solving , while doing status outputs and only-for-testing inputs is nearly for free.

You can argue that this (RAD) leads to being trained to do bad software, as for a _final_product_ it is much better to separate GUI oriented units from "Business logic" units (as this allows for better portability and easier maintenance).

But this is a completely different argument.

-Michael

Marco van de Voort wrote

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives instant-gratification

Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no

Michael Schnell wrote

> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives > instant-gratification Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no bother then, just pass them all, and forget about stressing any of them.

Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)

They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the end gave up.

Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote

Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from "Children" list of this page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language#Historical>

Looks like a list filled by the creators rather than the users.

Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section.

With an IMHO totally wrong description, but let's nog go there. Life is too short to rectify all unnecessary and false slights to Pascal.

start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS machines, don't know about *nix systems).

How about Delphi's console applications? No 8.3 limitation, can be ran from GUI.
Doesn't need to teach stdin/stdout as they are, instead teach for: "the computer waits for user to type something in and press enter". As well as stdout is actually "the window with text". No need to bother with working dir as well.

And yet again, nothing but pure problem solving. (no guis, message queues, event handlers etc).

thanks,
Dmitry
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really? i just put an icon on the desktop that opens TP directly or it opens a console window in the necessary directory and they take it from there... this on winwhatever and OS/2... other things like timeslicing came later and were advanced techniques to work on...

They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the end gave up.

sadly this is understandable... too many give up too soon, these days, because they don't get instant gratification... kinda like the schools giving out those bumper stickers saying "proud parent of a high school student" vs the original "proud parent of an honor roll student" and similar... it is well known that constant (and many times undeserved) ego boosting results in less achievement and lower quality results... this is even seen in such things as simple exercising at the gym where trainers drive and praise you but your results take longer and longer to achieve...

exactly... social promotion in education and the work environment have really brought standards down over the last 20 (at least) years... we need to learn from our mistakes to move forward and achieve greater learning...

Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" <

: On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort

start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS machines, don't know about *nix systems).

This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't support 16-bit applications anymore.

Regards,
Sven
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i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper configuration" come into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;) O:)

> >> > >> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console

cmdline and

> >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc) > >> > with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just > start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS machines, don't

know

> about *nix systems). > > This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't

support

> 16-bit applications anymore. i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper configuration"

come into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;) O:)

No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit Windows. The reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- and 64-bit.

Regards,
Sven
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'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not install virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 16bit apps? that is part of "proper configuration" after all ;)

VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but probably only on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).

I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on an 64 bit host.

DoDi

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but probably only on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).

IIRC I installed DOS 6.2 in VirtualBox, and then used it to install Win98SE (from which I had no bootable CD or image). All this on Win7-64.

Bart

What has this to do with Lazarus?

Mattias

What has this to do with Lazarus?

You are long enough on this list to know that long threads NEVER have anything to do with Lazarus. Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast.

R.

Reimar Grabowski wrote

You are long enough on this list to know that long threads NEVER have anything to do with Lazarus. Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast.

To be fair, the topic was the relevance of Pascal/Delphi/Lazarus in a modern teaching environment.

I suppose the degeneration into running 16 bit applications on a modern Operating system evolved from there...

> Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast. To be fair, the topic was the relevance of Pascal/Delphi/Lazarus in a modern teaching environment.

Some start out 'Lazarus related'

I suppose the degeneration into running 16 bit applications on a modern Operating system evolved from there...

but they deteriorate very fast

Point proven.

R.

cmdline and

> >> >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc) > >> >> > >> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be

just

> >> start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS machines,

don't know

> >> about *nix systems). > >> > >> This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they

don't support

> >> 16-bit applications anymore. > > > > > > i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper

configuration" come

> into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;)

O:)

> > No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit

Windows. The

> reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- and

64-bit.

'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not install

virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 16bit apps? that is part of "proper configuration" after all ;)

In my opinion Dmitry meant without 3rd party programs as he explicitely mentioned DOS and XP.

Regards,
Sven
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it was an example and something that today's BBS operators have to do if they offer DOS BBS door games and utilities on their BBSes... i don't have to deal with this right now since i still have true DOS environments available fir this but the concept is still the same... i do, actually, have the DOS version of FPC available which i use for compiling code i've written on my winwhetever boxen... i also compile that same code with the OS/2 version of FPC ;)

I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on an 64 bit host.

me either but there are solutions out there ;)

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on an 64 bit host.

If the CPU is fully emulated (e.g. QEMU without KVM) then it should be no problem.

Regards,
Sven

This is not needed, 16 bit applications on Windows XP work fine in Virtual box running on W7 64 Bit.

That's not the point. You even can teach people using (emulated) punched cards for job control and coding, but such knowledge is of no use on nowadays systems. Teaching OS specific console operations (commands...) is related to IT, but not to writing programs in general.

For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students can learn how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1 hour, sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The Art of Computer Programming" [Knuth]. Creating and using a GUI can become a detached course, covering both the general GUI design principles and how to master event driven applications.

DoDi

For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems.

But not as a starting point. As a starting point you should teach C. Plain and vanilla C and not some obscure language like Pascal (these are reserved for advanced programmers). Maybe a little object oriented programming in C (no C++) and GUI and event driven programming in C and multi-platform programming in C, as time permits. Most important is not how exactly or on what systems you teach students. The most important part is that they know C after the course and that people who fail to understand pointers in all their beauty fail the course (they would never be good programmers anyway). Next thing is Javascript. Does not need to be much JS as you write in C and compile to JS anyway but a little knowledge is needed. Now that the students know C and can compile it to JS the Web is all theirs. Win. If you think C is too hard for the students just give them PHP and be done with it. Win. If you think the language is not important but the concepts are teach them pseudo code and write on paper. No need for any computers. Cheap and to the point. Epic win. And one last but very important thing. Teach them about technical mailing lists and chat rooms and especially their differences. Teach them about on- and off-topic discussions. Teach them how to behave if you have politely been informed that your discussion actually is off-topic and they will become better coders and the Web will be a nicer place for us all.

R.

NAK

During my studies I've learned about 30 programming languages, and none was C because it didn't exist at that time. Instead we started with Algol 60, of which Pascal is a mini-descendant, Simula for OOP, Lisp as a functional language, APL etc. Understanding and implementing algorithms is not related to a specific language, and C certainly is not safe enough for beginners, and has too few data types.

C in fact is only a high-level assembler, allowing (or requiring) tricks with pointers and other low-level stuff, that are not necessary in better equipped languages. It may be useful together with assembler in an hardware or OS implementation course.

Next thing is Javascript.

You can add any current languages later, after the students have learned how to translate algorithms into well structured code.

DoDi

no problem.

That's not the point.

That is exactly the point, because you said that you weren't sure wether it is possible to run 16-bit code in a 32-bit VM on a 64-bit system. Florian and I simply confirmed that it is indeed possible.

Regards,
Sven
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Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...);

IIRC, we did use 16 bit clients as well in VMWare as in VBox.

-Michael

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

C certainly is not safe enough for beginners, and has too few data types.

Java script IMHO is horribly "unsafe" and has no (strict) data types. As it _is_ recommended for beginners. (Not a good choice at all, IMHO.)

-Michael

I'd distinguish between "beginners" and "students":

Beginners appreciate a language that is easy to master, even without further studies.

Students instead should understand programming principles first, before digging into the differences between programming languages.

DoDi

Looks like I have to explain my last mail.
It was just a test to see if you get that this discussions is off-topic or if you keep it going as long as somebody (me in this case) is willing to fuel it. You even missed or (most probably) ignored the last and most important statement. But the best part is that you took my proposal for teaching beginners seriously. Teaching them C and JS (or even PHP), Pascal being for advanced programmers only (and all of that on a Pascal related mailing list), really highly amusing.

Now I feel like I have to apologize for making fun of you as my mail clearly went straight over your head. I am sorry. Can this discussion now finally end here?

R.

Reimar Grabowski wrote

Can this discussion now finally end here?

No. ;-)

http://xkcd.com/1207/

:)

-L.

And http://xkcd.com/493/

:)
-L

FPC/trunk has a 16-bit compiler, and I assume you'll port Lazarus to it? :-)

Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)

In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too much.

Creating and using a GUI can become a detached course, covering both the general GUI design principles and how to master event driven applications.

My point was that TP was too alien, and the tricks to keep it running prevented it for students to run it on their own laptop.

Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.

The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer, and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton GUI app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their programs to use the skeleton units.

Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(

In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too much.

Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)

ACK

Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.

This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the interested can learn more about using Delphi.

The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer, and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton GUI app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their programs to use the skeleton units.

In your timeframe (9*1.5 hrs) I wouldn't address GUI

http://www.turbocontrol.com/monitor.htm

Several times I've used it to introduce people to programming. I usually start by downloading a small zip file from here: http://www.turbocontrol.com/helloworld.htm

After we compile and run the program I next show them the (few) files involved and try to give them a picture of how the source is changed into the executable.

What I'd like to have is a very simple IDE to go to next. So a "stripped Lazarus" as mentioned above might be good. Graeme (the fellow in the subject) has an IDE started with fpGUI that might (eventually) work too. You can quickly see an earlier version of that IDE using a zip from this page:
http://www.turbocontrol.com/easyfpgui.htm

Last year I bought ten kits similar to this:
http://www.parallax.com/product/90005
Those are my favorite way to introduce programming, by blinking a single LED on and off every second.

On that page you can download the PDF for the book, and also the editor software (it used to be written with Delphi or C++ Builder).

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

> Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :) Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(

Sadly enough they were, though not the highest level (aimed for bachelor as end-diploma). But since it was their first weeks at the school, one could consider them secondary school students still. Extremely playful, and interested in anything but work.

Same problem as with an Dos emulator for TP. Concepts too alien, install troubles etc.

I was actually flabbergasted by how little pre existing knowledge/experience the avg student understood of the console concept. And that was in 2005-7, now it will be even less.

> Delphi on the other hand invited too much play. This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the interested can learn more about using Delphi.

This energy does not exist outside mandatory classes :-)

students recognized as an IDE (read GUI app) that is hardwired to generate a visual app, without iniviting students to do things beyond their assignment.

Later, when they are properly potty-trained they can still graduate

Even if that is only an
inmutable skeleton with a memo for input and output.

Problems are quite different. A full DOS emulator includes a lot of low level stuff (running real-mode programs, disk formatting, networking...), that is not required for program development. A C64 or similar emulator can use virtual devices instead, interprets also the programs to run, and screen output is simple with a (fixed size) paintbox.

My experience with development systems also suggests an installation in a virtual machine. VM software installation is extremely simple, compared to an FPC/Lazarus installation and configuration, and a single VM can contain a fully installed and configured development system, ready for educational use. When somebody succeeded in breaking his system, a simple restore of the initial VM state allows to proceed normally within seconds (sandbox).

At the same time the students can learn about virtual machines (optional), which later also should be used in professional software development. A VM is insensitive to hardware replacement/upgrade, and allows continued use of a specific compiler version. See the persistent trouble with RadStudio installations, caused by upgrades of either Delphi or Windows - currently Win8.1 causes such trouble, and on Linux it will be ongoing GUI (gtk...) upgrades.

Plus a VM can be isolated perfectly from the real world, unreachable by NSA and other exploits and attacks (Merkel... ;-)

I was actually flabbergasted by how little pre existing knowledge/experience the avg student understood of the console concept. And that was in 2005-7, now it will be even less.

Nowadays cloud experience is more important than DOS experience. How many jobs will you find later, wich require DOS experience and coding, compared to the many jobs for writing (mobile) GUI and cloud applications?

It exists, it's only a matter of motivation. Let the students suggest projects of *their* interest, then teach them the useful techniques for their projects - learning by doing can be mere fun :-)

DoDi

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