Hello.

Currently we have regularly maintained Brazilian Portuguese (pt_BR) translation and unmaintained Portuguese (pt_PT) one, which was copied from the former and thus not entirely correct.

I think that if Portuguese translation won't be updated it should be removed before next Lazarus release.

I would like to get Portuguese community members opinions on what we should do:

1) Just remove it before the next release if it won't be fixed/updated.
2) Remove it and make pt_BR translation the default (pt).
3) 'Merge' these translations and leave only one unified Portuguese translation conforming to latest Portuguese orthographic agreement (AFAIK has some semantical issues).
4) Any other option I didn't think of.

Hi, from a previous discussion I promised to update the pt_PT translation. I have started the translation but it is going slower. I started at the same time that 0.9.30 was going to be released and as I was told to work with the trunk version I figured that I had plenty of time before next version.

if 4) can be: I will maintain it. I would see it as the be the best option.

Beware that this is a topic that can lead to a small flame war between the few Portuguese here and the larger Brazilian community. While is true that there was a very small difference between Portuguese and Brazilian orthography and that was unified with the latest agreement, the main differences are semantical. Many times, the word used to describe a certain concept are not the same, allowing you to identify the writer origin in one or two phrases.

Paulo Costa

Hello,

If i recall from the last discussion about this subject, i was opposed to split the files. At the time i quoted that the Lazarus wiki had stated the intention to have only the brazilian portuguese version ( see http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Translations_/_i18n_/_localizations_for_programs is still there). Unfortunatly my and others opinions was outvoted.
Since then i am responsible for the brazilian portuguese version of Lazarus language files. I agree that there are a lot of semantical differences between the two portuguese dialects, so about this new thread:

1) IMHO this could be done with the agreement of our fellows from Portugal. When the files get ready than they could
be added to the translations;
2) Paulo Costa is working in these files. Not fair with his efforts;
3) Not an option. Even with the orthographic agreement. There are to many semantical differences to adapt in
one set of files;

4) Let?s see what other fellow members can tell us.

In time, i want to remeber you all, that before splitting the files in different dialects, the IDE itself was having trouble in identifying the correct files to load as default, since the OS was reporting ?pt_BR? in its language enviroment variable. I assume that our fellow portuguese members experienced the same problem (but with other variable value (?pt_PT?) of course.)

So, some attention to IDE?s language routines may be needed.

Regards,

Marcelo B Paula
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110830/177cea17/attachment.html>

Paulo Costa wrote

> 4) Any other option I didn't think of. if 4) can be: I will maintain it. I would see it as the be the best option.

I am against such a divisive effort of having 2 translations for the same language.

Imagine if people from jamaica would start a jamaican_english and leave it half backed, or next thing there will be corsegan_french 2% complete for years, moldavian_romenian, etc, instead of everyone contributing to a single translation for each language. I'm in favor to Wikipedia's solution: ban such things: 1 language should have only 1 translation. People should try to get into agreements, instead of just forking.

You should have brought up particular texts where you think the translation is too brazilian and then we could agreed how to solve the issues on a common ground, but you didn't even try that, did you?

But I don't think it is too late, I propose that you bring up all real cases of what you don't like in the pt_BR translation, we could copy it to a pt version and see if all differences can be worked out.

If there is room enough for two versions of the same word we could use that. If there isn't, then use wikipedia's solution: Don't change just to change what is already there. Everyone understands all words anyway.

Many times, the word used to describe a certain concept are not the same, allowing you to identify the writer origin in one or two phrases.

So what? Can't you understand the words? Or are you alergic to portuguese words you consider too brazilian?

I imagine what makes americans and britons so englightened that there are no flame wars going on to decide if the translation should spell "color" or "colour". The equivalent of our situation would be britons considering american versions of words so repulsive that they would need to fork their own translation, again I wonder why they can get along while clearly part of the portuguese speeking community doesn't even want to try to get along.

2011/8/31 marcelo.bp :

In time, i want to remeber you all, that before splitting the files in different dialects, the IDE itself was having trouble in identifying the correct files to load as default

I dont see how this could be a problem because it is like that for all languages.

If there are people interested in doing the job, why not? Only people using that language would be affected and then they could just switch the language.
I don't think neither Brazilians will want 'files' translated to 'ficheiros' nor will Portuguese (people) want to have it translated to 'arquivos'.

-Fl?vio

2011/8/31 Fl?vio Etrusco :

I don't think neither Brazilians will want 'files' translated to 'ficheiros' nor will Portuguese (people) want to have it translated to 'arquivos'.

What about arquivo/ficheiro ?

Really? The main, most standardized menu for every single application will read "Ficheiro/Arquivo" (or Arquivo/Ficheiro?) in Lazarus? Well, I'm not really acquainted with the pt_PT computer terminologies, so I think we should wait for Paulo's work and see how much difference does it make.
Anyway, since Paulo said he wants to and will be able to do it, I don't see the point in discussing this.

Maxim, is there any time frame for a "string freeze"? We're still having lots of new and changed strings in svn...
Also, what's missing to support a base locale in case of missing translations?

Best regards,
Fl?vio

2011/8/31 Fl?vio Etrusco :

Really? The main, most standardized menu for every single application will read "Ficheiro/Arquivo" (or Arquivo/Ficheiro?) in Lazarus?

We are talking about the translation of the Lazarus IDE. This has nothing to do with translations of applications created with Lazarus.

Anyway, since Paulo said he wants to and will be able to do it, I don't see the point in discussing this.

That's not nearly enough of a reason IMHO. Plus, saying and actually doing it are different things.

Re-read the sentence.

What would be one then?
This decision can be obviously be taken at the minute before package the release.

-Fl?vio

2011/8/31 Fl?vio Etrusco :

Re-read the sentence.

Ok, so the answer now is: What's the problem with that?

If 99% of the words are the same a couple of slashed ones should not be an issue.

But I don't think it is too late, I propose that you bring up all real cases of what you don't like in the pt_BR translation, we could copy it to a pt version and see if all differences can be worked out.

As I understand the BR/PT differences, a preprocessor would be most useful to translate the different (technical) terms. Once these terms have been located and marked in the XML files, their substitution should not be hard to do. Perhaps it also can be made work without marks, from the wording itself.

DoDi

Sigh... Here we go again.

Like Fernando Pessoa said:
"A minha p?tria ? a l?ngua portuguesa"
http://pt.wikisource.org/wiki/A_minha_p%C3%A1tria_%C3%A9_a_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa In english: "My homeland is the Portuguese language"

This means that messing with the words means a lot to us. (this discussion is an example of _that_ problem)

Sometimes the best agreement is that there are enough differences and it is easier to let both parties walk their separate ways.

You should have brought up particular texts where you think the translation is too brazilian and then we could agreed how to solve the issues on a common ground, but you didn't even try that, did you?

I did that when there was the last discussion and I'll do it again. I've been collecting the differences as I was translating:

[English] - pt_BR - pt_PT

User - Usuario - Utilizador
File - Arquivo - Ficheiro
Mouse - Mouse - Rato
Screen - Tela - Ecr?
Reset - Redifinir - Restaurar
breakpoint - ponto de parada - ponto de paragem
Load - Carregar - Abrir
Save - Salvar - Guardar
registers - registradores - registos
policy - regra - pol?tica

there are more, but this are some of the most frequent. Changing the sentences where they appear touches a _lot_ of lines.

But I don't think it is too late, I propose that you bring up all real cases of what you don't like in the pt_BR translation, we could copy it to a pt version and see if all differences can be worked out.

Just try to install in a virtual machine and use a pt_PT version of Windows7. Then you'll see how it fell to use the "other" Portuguese.

If there is room enough for two versions of the same word we could use that. If there isn't, then use wikipedia's solution: Don't change just to change what is already there. Everyone understands all words anyway.

Don't bring that broken wikipedia policy to this this discussion.

They agreed to have different spellings. That's a fork from your perspective.

For the current translation state I've put the lazaruside.pt.po in http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~paco/lazaruside.pt.po.zip I've marked all entries "fuzzy" and the ones already "translated" have the "fuzzy" tag removed. If you use Poedit it can sort by that tag. I have already "translated" 10% of the 4000 entries. I hope the nexte days that number can increase :)

Paulo Costa

Paulo Costa wrote

Like Fernando Pessoa said: "A minha p?tria ? a l?ngua portuguesa"

And which language do people speak in Brazil? Russian? Punjabi?

This is even more absurd considering that ethnic portuguese in Brazil (like me) vastly outnumber ethnic portuguese in Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Brazilian#How_many_Brazilians_have_Portuguese_ancestry.3F). And now the minority that stayed behind wants to claim they have nothing to do with us, not even the same language =( Good that the government from Portugal does not think like that.

Sometimes the best agreement is that there are enough differences and it is easier to let both parties walk their separate ways.

-1 for this divisive behavior

I did that when there was the last discussion and I'll do it again. I've been collecting the differences as I was translating:

I think we can reduce the list a lot if we can just make some comprimises. I'll start with which words I think should be no problem for brazilians to use the portugal variant:

User - Usuario - Utilizador File - Arquivo - Ficheiro Mouse - Mouse - Rato Screen - Tela - Ecr?

None of these can be simply the brazilian variant? Or else simply slash.

Reset - Redifinir - Restaurar breakpoint - ponto de parada - ponto de paragem Load - Carregar - Abrir

All of these seam fine the portugal variant, although "Load" depends on the context.

Save - Salvar - Guardar

Can't be the brazilian one? Or else simply slash.

registers - registradores - registos

Which context? CPU Registers? If yes, then slash. If for database, then "registro" is fine.

policy - regra - pol?tica

Pol?tica reminds too much of "politics". Can't be the brazilian variant? People don't use the word "regra" in Portugal?

Just try to install in a virtual machine and use a pt_PT version of Windows7. Then you'll see how it fell to use the "other" Portuguese.

I've already used mixed translated linux a couple of times. It was a bit funny, at first I didn't know what "ecr?" ment. I don't remember being so disgusted that I need to find a way to "clean" up the translation.

They agreed to have different spellings. That's a fork from your perspective.

But they accept both as correct and valid in all circunstances. I have never heard anyone from britain complain that we should have a type TColour or rewrite texts where "color" is written.

I have not formed an opinion about it. But I am for freedom, if there are people who want to have (and can maintain) a particular translation for any language (Guarani perhaps), why not?

But I find it curious that the Brazilian community has considerable presence in Lazarus community and Portugal people want to abstract this.

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho :

2011/8/31 Ant?nio

I have not formed an opinion about it. But I am for freedom, if there are people who want to have (and can maintain) a particular translation for any language (Guarani perhaps), why not?

+1

Jo?o Marcelo
(from Brazil)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110831/6a0b2725/attachment.html>

Ant?nio wrote

But they accept both as correct and valid in all circunstances. I have never heard anyone from britain complain that we should have a type TColour or rewrite texts where "color" is written.

Maybe we should do something?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_dialect_and_accent

The word /self/ may become /sen/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110831/308928a5/attachment.html>

Ant?nio wrote

I have not formed an opinion about it. But I am for freedom, if there are people who want ?to have (and can maintain) a particular translation for any language (Guarani perhaps), why not?

freedom is not each doing what he wants, it is not nearly the same as anarchy.

Guarani is a language, portugal portuguese is not a language. Portuguese is a language.

That's why for example Wikipedia has only 1 portuguese version. Or is it not a free enciclopedia?

Anyway, this issue reminds me Fran?ois Le Pen saying: "in France, I am like Sitting Bull." .

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho :

Hi guys,

A heated discussion indeed, isn?t it ?

Just add some more facts to take in account:

- Translations includes all IDE interface, LCL and components as well (so we are talking about 4000+ string lines);
- Some mix of two portuguese word versions like ?Ficheiro/Arquivo?, could not be aesthetic. (Well i never saw any interface like that...)
- When translating, is not always possible to deduce the context;

And finally, remember that this is a volunteer job. As a programmer, i always get angry when people say to redo my job. You know, rewrite code that you know that works just to satisfy some jerk analist, sucks!! Imagine doing this with strings without a solid motive. Not to mention that Lazarus has a lot work to do.

Just consider this.

Regards,

Marcelo B Paula
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110831/74833601/attachment.html>

I vote for 2. Just like US english is used instead of UK english: more users, more population, etc.
Soon Portugal will go bankrupt, the brazilian government should buy it to make our 28th state. :-)

2011/8/30 Maxim Ganetsky

Ant?nio wrote

I have not formed an opinion about it. But I am for freedom, if there are people who want to have (and can maintain) a particular translation for any language (Guarani perhaps), why not?

That is also my opinion. If you want people contributing to your project you can't say their effort is unwanted/misguided or that it's my way or the highway.
Then you wonder you you are not attracting contributors...

But I find it curious that the Brazilian community has considerable presence in Lazarus community and Portugal people want to abstract this.

What do you mean by "abstract"?
I would never think of changing wiki pages written in Portuguese by Brazilians just because of the style. Not even documentation.

For the IDE menus and dialogs, I would find myself more comfortable to use there the standard terms for us, in Portugal.

Paulo Costa

Alexsander Rosa wrote

I vote for 2. Just like US english is used instead of UK english: more users, more population, etc. Soon Portugal will go bankrupt, the brazilian government should buy it to make our 28th state. :-)

And here you see why the nice effort from Felipe to have a common Portuguese language file may face severe problems.

Paulo Costa

Brazilian imperialism?

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Paulo Costa :

Jokes aside, there's no british whining about GUI strings. Why are the portuguese so attached to their language?

2011/8/31 Paulo Costa

Alexsander Rosa wrote

Jokes aside, there's no british whining about GUI strings. Why are the portuguese so attached to their language?

Some people have better things to whine about, it turns out.

Henry

2011/8/31 Alexsander Rosa :

Jokes aside, there's no british whining about GUI strings. Why are the portuguese so attached to their language?

I guess you meant "lousy attempts at jokes aside". Anyway, they're not whining about anything. "They" want to contribute a translation to Lazarus that they feel better for their national audience and we should mind our own fucking business. IMHO British vs American English is much closer than Portuguese vs Brazilian Portuguese, due to cultural and historical reasons, even more in the computer field.

Can we just move on?

-Fl?vio

2011/8/31 Fl?vio Etrusco :

Anyway...

It is a horrible tactic to come like this and attempt to destroy the discussion with zero arguments and only harsh language.

I already made a proposal for reducing the word differences and I am waiting for a reply from the portuguese side.

Guys,

I think that you should ask yourselves why is so important to have a localized tool like Lazarus. If you permit to give my testimony, i have been programming since 1986 and i met Pascal language in 1999 with Delphi4. During all my professional life i always used tools with english as language. So what.

What is the probability of you get involved with a project, in the near future, that will require a multi-language support? What is the percentual of programmers that need to use its own language in a IDE to know what they are doing? Do you started programming recently?

What is the point here ?

When i decided to contribute with Lazarus i thought that making a localized version could contribute to new programmers get attracted to it and know a great language (Pascal). So, kids could start their experience with a great language.

I don?t think that there are kids here, in this discussion.

So, lets focus in what matters. Besides the desires of some people here, let?s think what benefits the Lazarus tool.

Otherwise, IMHO, just ask Lazarus team to remove all other language from IDE and uses only english. That?s not a big deal, if you used Delphi a lot.

Regards,

Marcelo B Paula
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110831/98d5e571/attachment.html>

And you are the one to say that? So that lame remark (joke???) and saying that "the Portuguese users are whining" is pertinent to the debate?

I already made a proposal for reducing the word differences and I am waiting for a reply from the portuguese side.

Who should be discussing are the pt_BR and pt_PT translators. Marcelo hasn't asked for help. Paulo said he already discussed and he doesn't see a shared translation to be feasible.
I take Maxim's post for a request for action (on the pt_PT side), which for all effects Paulo has taken/promised.
How they decide or not to cooperate IMO has zero relevance right now. KDiff3 is enough cooperation.

-Fl?vio

Well, if the things are already decided, the discussion loses purpose, but I think that Alexsander remark reforces Felipe's point that maybe there is a precedent for this case in the English language.

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Fl?vio Etrusco :

Paulo said he already discussed and he doesn't see a shared translation to be feasible.

And he presented 10 words as proof, of which we could easily agree with some compromise to choose a version for 6 of them, which would leave only 4 different words ... really silly to fork a translation of 4000 items for 4 words!

Those words were a quick sample, there are more, somewhat problematic, that I did not present because I was not sure yet on what alternative I would like to use.

I was please by your effort to reach a compromise, my main skepticism is if you can push that compromise over the pt_BR maintainer. And if sticks. There is the risk that in a year or two those changes are reverted to the more Brazilian forms. That would prompt another round of this discussions...

From your proposal:

If you can push that to the pt_BR version...

Here, only "parada" is really strange in Portugal. We only use it like "subir a parada". The others I took from the way Micosoft uses in the pt_PT version of Windows. I know, that's not a strong argument for some minds :)

All of these seam fine the portugal variant, although "Load" depends on the context. > Save - Salvar - Guardar

Again not very troubling.

I think the context was CPU registers.

> policy - regra - pol?tica Pol?tica reminds too much of "politics". Can't be the brazilian variant? People don't use the word "regra" in Portugal?

No problem here, "regra"(rule) is more low level but it is acceptable.

I have talked with other Portuguese Lazarus and, like me, they use the English version, so an agreement that spares me a lot of work is fine.

Like I, said I think you won't be able to push your proposed changes over the pt_BR version and going with separate ways minimizes trouble/work for everybody in the end, but let's see...

Paulo Costa

31.08.2011 20:11, Fl?vio Etrusco ?????:

Yes, you understood me right.

How they decide or not to cooperate IMO has zero relevance right now.

Exactly. Any solution is fine with me.

KDiff3 is enough cooperation.

31.08.2011 12:23, Fl?vio Etrusco ?????:

Maxim, is there any time frame for a "string freeze"? We're still having lots of new and changed strings in svn...

There is not formal string freeze. Strings are not changed very much at the end of the release cycle usually and it is easy to keep up with them.

Also, what's missing to support a base locale in case of missing translations?

Currently if string is missing in current translation then English one is used.

Do you mean that if pt_PT translation misses a string then pt one should be used? If yes then I didn't investigate, but probably it is not very hard to add this behavior.

Exactly. Any solution is fine with me.

Apparently Portuguese translation would be the only one that would have two versions.

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Maxim Ganetsky :

01.09.2011 1:16, Ant?nio ?????:

> Exactly. Any solution is fine with me. Apparently Portuguese translation would be the only one that would have two versions.

And?

And there are some precedents, for example, Wikipedia.

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Maxim Ganetsky :

01.09.2011 1:30, Ant?nio ?????:

And there are some precedents, for example, Wikipedia.

And why should we follow them? Apparently Wikipedia prefers to have one more complete section instead of two less complete ones. It is their decision.

What will it help?

Well, the decision process of Wikipedia is similar to ours. The problems discussed there are also similar.

Ant?nio

2011/8/31 Maxim Ganetsky :

Ok, now we are progressing =)

So I formed a proposal, let's see now what Marcelo and Paulo think about it. I ordered slashed words as to preserve the original gender, diminishing changes to nearby words (for example "da tela/ecr?")

Only 4 words are proposed to be slashed.

[English] - pt_BR - pt_PT - proposed solution

User - Usuario - Utilizador => Usu?rio/Utilizador
File - Arquivo - Ficheiro => Ficheiro/Arquivo
Mouse - Mouse - Rato => Rato/Mouse
Screen - Tela - Ecr? => Tela/Ecr?
Reset - Redifinir - Restaurar => Restaurar
breakpoint - ponto de parada - ponto de paragem => ponto de paragem Load - Carregar - Abrir => Carregar
Save - Salvar - Guardar => Salvar
registers - registradores - registos => Registradores policy - regra - pol?tica => Regra

For other less used words I'm confident that we can reach agreements too.

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

Apparently Portuguese translation would be the only one that would have two versions.

Swiss and German may have the same problem (dunno)

DoDi

I never heard complains.

Mattias

So, i should understand that where i find these words, i must change to its slashed format? For ex:
"Todos os arquivos" => "Todos os ficheiros/arquivos"

What about accelerators keys?

I am just concerned about when determined phrase pass the dialog border limits. There are some IDE dialogs that do not
threat line break correctly. If you want i can forward some screenshots, or simple turn the brazilian portuguese language on
and take a look in some Tools/IDE options.

Even if we say that this small list is "the list", there will be a lot of work ahead.

Regards,

Marcelo B Paula

marcelo.bp wrote

So, i should understand that where i find these words, i must change to its slashed format? For ex: "Todos os arquivos" => "Todos os ficheiros/arquivos"

Yes, although you don't really need to do all the work, one idea is to wait for patches from contributors from Portugal for this task, for example Paulo. There would be work anyway for translating the whole thing into the pt_PT file, so the work for sending patches to add the slashes is much smaller... you could review patches.

What about accelerators keys?

I would propose to keep them like they are now (so all of them in the brazilian versions). Changing accelerators can bring conflicts with other accelerators.

Yes, it would be good if you can report these issues and then we can fix them.

We can also look at particular issues that appear one by one

(...)

?Load - Carregar - Abrir => Carregar

(...)

Just a little _hint_: the standard in pt_BR is also "abrir".

Best regards,
Fl?vio

Above representation is suitable for documentation, but not for the translation of menu entries or labels. As already suggested, a script or a dedicated preprocessor could be used, to provide the Brasilian or Portuguese version from the source texts, for compilation into final documentation. Similar procedures could be used to create national string resources from files with slashed format.

DoDi

If your proposal is feasible, it is progress indeed.

I have a few more problematic words:

sources - fontes - fontes (o/a)
Here the problem is the word used as a masculine word when it is feminine word. (Note for non Portuguese speakers: in Portuguese every substantive is a he or a she and the rest of the phrase must reflect it...) I think here the problem comes from the implicit "O "arquivo/ficheiro] fonte" that becomes "o fonte" that sounds very strange.

link - Vincular - ???
Are you sure that the word "vincular" is commonly used in this context in Brazil? Here we mostly use the English word. I tried to find an alternate word by searching programing books here in Portuguese and got three different possibilities: "fazer o link", "ligar", "consolidar". Worse, a book from a Brazilian author used yet another word.

hint - dica - sugest?o
In Portugal "dica" is slang. It can be understood but looks cheap.

show - exibir - mostrar
Just that "exibir" is somewhat stronger/active than "mostrar"

I've also found that middle button sometimes is used "bot?o central" and then "bot?o do meio". No preference here.

There is also the difference from using the "ger?ndio": compiling - compilando - a compilar
running - correndo - a correr
...

but I think is acceptable for us Portuguese to maintain the "ger?ndio" form.

Paulo Costa

In Brazil you never say "correr um programa". In this context, "run" is "executar"; "correr" is for athletes. [1]
It's odd to use "rato" for mouse, "rato" is the animal. "Mouse" is common, "dispositivo apontador" (pointing device) is less odd. [2] The word "ecr?" is unknown for most brazilians until they use a PT-PT program. The brazilian word is "tela". [3]
Ficheiro in Brazil remembers the furniture, or at least a folder. A brazilian would find File easier than Ficheiro. [4] Another difference: Load = Carregar; Open = Abrir. Both are very common words in applications and games.

[1] http://pt.wiktionary.org/wiki/correr
[2] http://pt.wiktionary.org/wiki/mouse
[3] http://pt.wiktionary.org/wiki/tela
[4] http://pt.wiktionary.org/wiki/ficheiro

2011/9/1 Paulo Costa

Would it be possible to take this work group discussion off the main mailing list while details are being worked out?

Rich Saunders wrote

Would it be possible to take this work group discussion off the main mailing list while details are being worked out?

I was just going to propose something like that. The difference between the way Portuguese is used in Brazil and in Portugal probably isn't very interesting for most of the non Portuguese speakers.

Also, this discussion does not need to be done in English as it is somewhat strange to have people from Portugal an Brazil discussing Portuguese usage in English...

Paulo Costa

What about [lazarus-br] mailing list?
http://groups.google.com.br/group/lazarus-br?hl=pt-BR

2011/9/1 Paulo Costa

Hello List,

I ask your permission to post my own point of view even been just an ordinary user

Obviously, there are some technical aspects and also some political ones to be considered by Lazarus core team!

If not a big problem from this point of view, then, IMHO is simply more comfortable having local style considered in translations, so, 2 (why not more?) variants for Portuguese language would be nice. Of course, I am still able to read it if written in Portuguese style though I would prefer in Brazilian one!

An approach where additional languages files (or styles) are available for download from a repository is not an option? Would it technically represent a problem?

Regards,

Falcao

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110902/6187ff55/attachment.html>

If not a big problem from this point of view, then, IMHO is simply more comfortable having local style considered in translations, so, 2 (why not more?) variants for Portuguese language would be nice.

You seem to miss the real problem: every version must be supported, i.e. when the English documentation changes, the documentation in every other language should be updated accordingly. Are you willing to do that, for your preferred language?

DoDi

Hello list,

I want to share with you some aspects that i took in account when doing the translations.

First of all, as a programmer, i tried to use terms that are most used in programmer circle.

This is somewhat difficult because, as i exposed in a previous post, all of us used to use english terms and usually try to create words that does not exist in our formal language. For example: ?link? ?> ?lincar ou linkar?, ?debug? ?> ?debugar? , etc.

Other aspect is what the original word means within the context. So, what is the diferences between ?show? and ?display? for example. Or ?Load? and ?Open?. Someone said that is common to translate ?Load? as ?Abrir?; I disagree of that.

This is just some thoughts. I think that a better research must be done first than trying to simple exchange words, don?t you think?

Regards,

Marcelo B Paula.

PS: About to discuss this subject in another thread, you must ask Maxim, since this was his call. -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110902/59dacc7c/attachment.html>

Your solution is not really simple to implement, because:

1> What about accelerators?
2> Portuguese has gender, and changing a word can change elements connected to it. Portuguese has articles, and uses them very often, so a noun gender change will very often change at least the associated article.

Plus, there seams to be no-one which volunteered to write such a tool.

See above: Documentation doesn't contain accelerators. String resources must be translated properly, of course, but this is not required very often, so that it can be done manually.

2> Portuguese has gender, and changing a word can change elements connected to it. Portuguese has articles, and uses them very often, so a noun gender change will very often change at least the associated article.

German has the same problems. From the preceding sample words I cannot determine whether PT/BR pairs exist with different gender.

Plus, there seams to be no-one which volunteered to write such a tool.

When the words-to-translate are marked in an appropriate way, global find-and-replace can do the rest. The "pt/br" style is only nice for human readers, for automated text substition something like "%english term%" might be more appropriate. If ever required, the preprocessed text then can be checked with any common spell checker (OpenOffice...), which may reveal more errors in the original texts.

DoDi

2011/9/2 marcelo.bp :

In the University of S?o Paulo link was always translated like this:

to link -> ligar ou vincular
linking -> ligando ou vinculando
linker -> programa ligador
link (noun) -> liga??o

See also: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligador

Similarly:

to assemble -> montar
assembler -> montador
assemble (noun) -> montagem

"linkar" is pretty nasty in that it does not obey basic portuguese language rules. No words should contain k or w. On the other hand "ligar" is ambiguous as it also means "to turn on"

Other aspect is what the original word means within the context. So, what is the diferences between ?show? and ?display? for example.

I think that "show" is nearly the same as "display"

Or ?Load? and ?Open?.

I think that Load is different from Open, although explaining seams hard.

Someone said that is common to translate ?Load? as ?Abrir?; I disagree of that.

+1 it is "Carregar", unless "Load" is being used as "Open"

No on something completely different: I don't know why, but all of your e-mails start new threads in my gmail instead of going to the thread where it belongs. Do you change the subject before answering?

You should ask yourselves what exactly a link process do. I am sure you know it.
So what the better word that describe this process. ?Ligar? or ?Vincular?. I should point here the definition of a ?DLL?, in windows, of course:
- DLL states to a ?Dynamic Link Library?, right ? What brazilian programmer books usually uses:
- ?Biblioteca de V?nculo Din?mico? or
- ?Biblioteca de Liga??o(?es) Din?mica(s)?

IMHO we must choose one...

> to assemble ?> montar

I agree with that.

> assembler ?> montador

I prefer to keep it as ?assembler? since it denotes the name of the computer language too.

> assemble (noun) -> montagem

No problem here.

>No on something completely different: I don't know why, but all of >your e-mails start new threads in my gmail instead of going to the >thread where it belongs. Do you change the subject before answering?

Weird. I send them with the same subject. Don?t know what?s going on.

Marcelo

The answer is "ligar", and Biblioteca de Liga??o(?es) Din?mica(s)

I think that Load is different from Open, although explaining seams hard.

*Open* is *Abrir*. Look in any dictionary. *Load* is *Carregar*. Look in any dictionary. You can *open* a file for reading, writing or both, like opening a book or notebook to do the same. In "computerese" *load* is used to fill memory with something that may or may not come from a file that was opened.

> Someone said that is common to translate ?Load? as ?Abrir?; I disagree of > that.

+1.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20110905/355524f5/attachment.html>

I think this:

X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3538.513

is your problem... - what it sends seems like it contains no references in the header, therefore programs that are aware of them, well, they are at loss...

Windows Live Mail is a webfront of what used to be Hotmail, right ? Maybe there are some settings that govern this (I don't use hotmail, I don't know)

If there aren't, you may want to get yourself a thread-aware email program (like, Thunderbird)...

L.

I think this: X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3538.513

I'm not sure about that...

is your problem... - what it sends seems like it contains no references in the header, therefore programs that are aware of them, well, they are at loss...

Windows Live Mail is thread aware, whether or not it posts references I don't know
I'm using this post as a test :)

Windows Live Mail is a webfront of what used to be Hotmail, right ?

Wrong.

Maybe there are some settings that govern this (I don't use hotmail, I don't know)

Perhaps.

I'm using this post as a test :)

Reply came in the expected thread and headers indicate references...

References: <E2199D8895274E3393E58BB632C3068E at Ferrari>

2011/9/5 wildfire :

Yet, Marcelo's post doesn't have a References header.

Vincent

Yet, Marcelo's post doesn't have a References header.

As Lukasz suggested earlier, perhaps there is a setting for this. If there is I wouldn't have a clue where to find it (I rarely use this client).

Either way it's not actually the client that's the issue. Perhaps a server somewhere is stripping the header (though why I wouldn't have a clue).

His posts also don't have the usual "Re:" at the start of the subject. Reason enough to believe, that his mailer is sending them as new mail, rather than as reply

His posts also don't have the usual "Re:" at the start of the subject. Reason enough to believe, that his mailer is sending them as new mail, rather than as reply

I think you've hit the nail on the head Martin.

One final test for the doubters out there, I've also changed the subject.

One final test for the doubters out there, I've also changed the subject.

Which does start a new thread in Live Mail (at least with default settings).

Though the References Header is still there.