Hi,

As Jonas pointed out in the FPC-Devel mailing list. Embarcadero thinks FPC is of high enough quality so they are using it to create there iOS (ARM) products. This is apparently an intermediate step until they build there own ARM compiler, but it's still good news for the FPC team.

http://delphimax.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/delphi-64bit-os-x-and-iphone-native/#comment-743 http://delphimax.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/delphi-64bit-os-x-and-iphone-native/#comment-749

On the flip side...

">> no VCL in MACOS why?

Several reasons. but first, we did start out building a VCL for Mac ? but killed it because VCL is really designed for Windows."

-- Michael Swindell (Embarcadero Delphi developer)

This confirms my thoughts I have had for a long time. VCL is just too Windows centric and is NOT a good basis for cross-platform development. With my recent experiments of Lazarus on Mac OS X, I have clearly noticed this too in Lazarus. The LCL experience under Mac OS X was terrible. Yes some things were contributed to very bad defaults in the IDE, but other things related to LCL were just bad. It doesn't look good or the same as "real" mac apps, doesn't behave the same etc... All Lazarus design goals of "native on each platform" is just not panning out. Sorry guys.

There is hope though. Stop being so anal about "must be VCL compatible and nothing better". Stop cloning VCL and rather innovate. Come up with something better than VCL.

Now the very bad news... Embarcadero bumped Linux further down the priority list. They feel Mac users are willing to pay for software and Linux users not [I think this is rubbish!]. So they are first tackling Mac OSX, then iOS, then Linux, then Android.

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

There is hope though. Stop being so anal about "must be VCL compatible and nothing better". Stop cloning VCL and rather innovate. Come up with something better than VCL.

This is simply not the goal of the LCL. There are other projects like MSEgui and fpGUI (remember it ;)?) which have the goal to create something different.

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

">> no VCL in MACOS why? Several reasons. but first, we did start out building a VCL for Mac ? but killed it because VCL is really designed for Windows."

Maybe they killed it because they are not competent enought to port the VCL to other operating systems.

This confirms my thoughts I have had for a long time. VCL is just too Windows centric and is NOT a good basis for cross-platform development.

You don't like it, don't use it. Lazarus itself proves that it is an excelent cross-platform base, Lazarus in Mac OS X works great for me.

Plus, all apps in these pages are written in Lazarus and work fine in Mac OS X:

http://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Pascal_Application_Suite

http://wiki.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Application_Gallery

The LCL experience under Mac OS X was terrible.

Strange, for me it works excelently.

It doesn't look good or the same as "real" mac apps, doesn't behave the same etc... All Lazarus design goals of "native on each platform" is just not panning out. Sorry guys.

lol! You always claimed that looking native is irrelevant, so how can you criticize Lazarus now for not being native enough?

Plus, Lazarus looks much more native and much more a Mac app then iTunes.

There is hope though. Stop being so anal about "must be VCL compatible and nothing better". Stop cloning VCL and rather innovate. Come up with something better than VCL.

Why do you care about what we are doing? You don't use the LCL anyway. Or do you want to drop fpgui and start using and developing the LCL if it is more innovative?

Plus, LCL users are not stuck to the native controls, if you don't like the native controls you can use a custom drawn version:

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Custom_Drawn_Controls

That's what I call choice.

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho <

wrote:

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys

I am partial agree with Graeme, LCL still use Windows as base platform, for example BorderStyle property in the TForm (bsDialog, bsSingle ...), as i remember it is from Delphi1 that work on Win3.11, look at bsSingle what it is mean, How i can describe BorderStyle to newbie students, in Win311 there is Form the border sized Sizable = Double, Single not sizable, or Dialog = double but not sizable, it is depends on Resources in Win311 same names.

LCL is still inherit something from Win311

Best regard
Zaher Dirkey
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Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote

Maybe they killed it because they are not competent enought to port the VCL to other operating systems.

Please tell me that was a joke. Do you really think with their vast amounts of resources, developers and financial backing that they really couldn't do that. They simply came to the realization that it doesn't work well enough. To be VCL "compatible" they have to resort to only using the common features across platforms - leaving the VCL totally useless except under Windows. They realized that is not the way to go. Qt being proof that a cross platform toolkit is possible, but you need to be flexible in your design. With some innovation and unique design it is much more plausible.

Let history be a lesson too. What "clone" of a popular product is currently a success today. NONE! Sybil - dead. CLX - dead. Mono - dead or no future because of patent issues. Imagine Mozilla Firefox simply wanted to be a clone of IE. Do you really think they would be where they are today?

excelent cross-platform base, Lazarus in Mac OS X works great for me.

Yeah, use something long enough and you don't notice the obvious issues. I used Lazarus on a iMac a month ago, for the first time. I have been using a Mac since December 2010. By default Laz 0.9.30 released version was disastrous. Most of the defaults of the IDE was just terrible. Many dialog didn't look like Mac dialogs and components. eg: LCL buttons are rectangular, or rectangular with rounded edges and sometimes round (like actual Mac button). Most buttons in the Lazarus IDE was between option 1 or 2. So how do you call this "native" when all buttons in Mac apps are rounded?

lol! You always claimed that looking native is irrelevant, so how can you criticize Lazarus now for not being native enough?

For my projects and toolkit that is indeed the case. But we are talking about LCL here, which does have that "native look and feel" goal. I think that goal is maybe reached on Windows and Linux. The Mac support is still far off target.

Why do you care about what we are doing? You don't use the LCL anyway.

I use Lazarus IDE which is a "showcase product" of LCL - isn't it?

Plus, LCL users are not stuck to the native controls, if you don't like the native controls you can use a custom drawn version: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Custom_Drawn_Controls

Funny you mention that. Isn't that exactly the opposite of what the Lazarus project is trying to achieve? Or are you now agreeing that the native LCL controls are just not good enough, or flexible enough, so you have to resort to custom drawn controls?

So what is the Lazarus project going to do now? Wait to see what Embarcadero releases, then start the whole catch-up game again - always being two steps behind.

Now just to be clear, it is amazing you guys got as far as you did. The LCL is very fragile and prone to break [just look in Mantis]. On the other hand, I think Lazarus IDE (at least under Linux) is great. Why? It's not a Delphi IDE clone. The IDE has unique features that make it a better product. So developers want to use it. LCL is a clone, always behind what Delphi does, cannot innovate or be original.

Don't shoot the messenger. I was simply quoting what Embarcadero developers think - they should know, as they develop the product you guys are trying to clone.

2011/8/7 Graeme Geldenhuys :

They may have (had) them, but had different priorities. For example a win64 compiler ... ;-)

IOW, I am not impressed with the amount of resources the Delphi owners have or what to spend.

Vincent

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Let history be a lesson too. What "clone" of a popular product is currently a success today. NONE! Sybil - dead. CLX - dead. Mono - dead

Just count the number of dead, non-vcl compatible and largely unknown gui libraries. At least I've one to offer: FPKWin :)

Imagine Mozilla Firefox simply wanted to be a clone of IE.

This would have no advantage while being VCL compatible allows people to reuse a lot of their knowledge when using the LCL.

I have to agree. They even are not able (have no time or whatsoever) to produce an ARM compiler. In former days, Borland had been one of the top compiler producers.

Regards, Bernd.

Florian Klaempfl wrote

> Imagine Mozilla Firefox simply > wanted to be a clone of IE. This would have no advantage

It would have had, just not for the better. If Firefox simply cloned IE, web designers would only have had to code for ONE broken browser (ignoring HTML standards while they are at it, but at least all websites would have worked on all platforms), and they [web designers] could have reused there broken-HTML syntax knowledge for all platforms. My point was simply that cloning has very little benefits at all, and is always two steps behind - never as good as the real deal. Think iPad vs XXXX Tablet. 1-2 years later, with hundreds of clones, and still iPad is better than the rest with no real competition in sight.

...while being VCL compatible allows people to reuse a lot of their knowledge when using the LCL.

Yes, Object Pascal knowledge and some VCL knowledge. And realistically, LCL has many differences between VCL and many differences between LCL on different platforms (again, look at Mantis if you don't believe me). Not to mention a different compiler too, different deployment rules etc etc. No matter how much you clone, there is still LOTS to learn when moving your products cross platform. To have truly cross-platform products you have to think cross-platform from the start. Trying to convert your Windows-ism's to Linux or Mac simply doesn't work! You will end up with a half-baked product that will not sell. Embarcadero realized this too.

Anyway, I was simply listing what Embarcadero developers mentioned, and where they are taking Delphi. I though this information is pertinent to Lazarus developers - do with that information whatever you want.

As said before, for me the indicator of the success of an OSS product is the number of contributors, so this narrows it down.

You know that the CLX was not VCL compatible either, aimed a cross platform compatibility (Qt) and required basically a complete rewrite? Result is known ...

From what I saw of FireMonkey so far (admitted little): I don't think

that it competes with classical gui toolkits but it seems to aim at new gui concepts as mobiles or tablets require. So the situation is different here and FireMonkey has good chances to be a success.

Florian Klaempfl wrote

>From what I saw of FireMonkey so far (admitted little): I don't think

I found some YouTube videos demoing the Delphi Mac OSX support and FireMonkey based apps.

gui concepts as mobiles or tablets require. So the situation is different here and FireMonkey has good chances to be a success.

Has anybody registered a Lazarus4FireMonkey project on SourceForge yet. Let the cloning begin. ;-)

And just so everybody else also knows. FireMonkey is NOT compatible with VCL. And NO there is no conversion tool for VCL apps. You have to rewrite your app. And the UI is uniform (consistent in look and feel) on all platforms. Meaning it looks identical on all platforms. If you make your TButton green with blue text, it will be green with blue text an Windows, Mac OSX, iOS etc.

[rant]
Now Embarcadero p**sed me off even more. They have this WORLD TOUR, demoing what's new in Delphi XE2. Yeah, world tour my ass. That big continent in the middle of a world map - AFRICA - it's not part of the world as far as Embarcadero is concerned. Not a single event in the whole African continent! At least in the days of Borland Delphi, they recognized Africa as part of the world, and had regular events here in South Africa.
[/rant]

While not on the same scale, they have also given up on the whole of New England with no event farther north than New York City. Back in the day Boston at least go lots of luv.

while I agree with you on that one, Graeme, I can't help but being a nitpicker :-)

"the middle of the world map" does not exist. If by the depiction you mean conventional Greenwich 0 meridian = horizontal centre, then: yes. But there have been times where the "centre of the world map" used to be the part of the world you just happened to live in. (the Brittish just seem to have won ;-))

met vriendelijke groeten,
Dimitri Smits

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Please tell me that was a joke.

Unfortunately it isn't. Let's compare what was achieved in the last 10 years by these two companies:

* Borland/Embarcadero -> In the last 10 years they started multiple failled products (Kylix, Delphi.NET), added 1 major feature to the VCL (Unicode), bought a couple of other projects (Delphi for PHP) and managed to reduce themselves from a major player to a minor one which isn't even in the news usually.

* Qt -> Started in a garage with 2 guys while Borland was in NASDAQ and grew to become much more important then Delphi today. In the city where I live there are many Qt programmer jobs, but zero Delphi programmer jobs.

How can this not be incompetence?

To be VCL "compatible" they have to resort to only using the common features across platforms

That's valid for *any* cross-platform toolkit.

Qt being proof that a cross platform toolkit is possible, but you need to be flexible in your design. With some innovation and unique design it is much more plausible.

If Qt did it, why can't they do it to? It's just a question of adding more APIs for the missing functionality which people were completing with the Windows API. Qt did the same when they gradually added APIs for their toolkit.

There is nothing special in the VCL that stops it from being a cross-platform GUI toolkit. It could even be implemented fully custom drawn if they think it is too much trouble to learn Cocoa...

Even for mobiles, Qt doesn't use a different toolkit for mobiles, so why should we?

Let history be a lesson too. What "clone" of a popular product is currently a success today. NONE!

All basic GNU tools (bash, rm, ls, etc) are clones of proprietary UNIX equivalents.
Linux <- started as a minix clone
KDE copies the Windows desktop style and it even has a KolourPaint

OpenOffice is pretty much a clone of MS Office 97. Now, here we see something very similar to the VCL/LCL thing. OpenOffice pretty much clones MS Office, but that does not mean a blind follower like mono was. When MS Office introduced their new reboon, OpenOffice didn't follow them. Similarly the LCL doesn't have to blindly follow what Embarcadero does in the future. But just like OpenOffice we are *not* into changing because of fashion. Backwards compatibility is important. Adding new stuff is much more relevant then changing old stuff which works perfectly well for fashing reasons.

Many dialog didn't look like Mac dialogs and components. eg: LCL buttons are rectangular, or rectangular with rounded edges and sometimes round (like actual Mac button).

Who do you think that paints LCL-Carbon buttons? They are native, aqua buttons, they are just square because of the size...

Aqua paints all buttons with height >= 23 square. Just try in the Lazarus in the form designer and you will see. You don't see many square buttons in other apps simply because they use smaller buttons....

So I don't see anything wrong with the LCL here. Unless you think that Carbon and Cocoa are wrong too, but that would be a non-sense.

As I said, Lazarus gives you choice. You can choose for your project what you want and you can mix native and non-native controls in the same project. That's very powerful and unique, I don't know any toolkit which offers that.

So what is the Lazarus project going to do now? Wait to see what Embarcadero releases, then start the whole catch-up game again - always being two steps behind.

Does Embarcadero actually release anything new to the VCL? The only thing in the last 10 years was unicode support...

And we are *not* playing catch-up, we introduced Unicode support before the VCL...

The IDE has unique features that make it a better product. So developers want to use it. LCL is a clone, always behind what Delphi does, cannot innovate or be original.

The LCL has unique features, it looks like you just don't know them. Some examples:

WindowState: wsFullscreen
TDBNavigator Option to have focusable buttons (useful for mobiles, accessibility)
TForm/TWinControl.setShape (one version receives a bitmap another receives a TRegion)
TLazIntfImage
TIcon in the LCL is extremely powerful and *much* larger (in amount of functionality) then the VCL equivalent
TTrayIcon <- We introduced it before the VCL did

Dimitri Smits wrote

"the middle of the world map" does not exist. If by the depiction you mean conventional Greenwich 0 meridian = horizontal centre,

I don't know what world or time you live in, but in todays day and age, the African continent is dead center in the world map. To think of it, the African continent is apparently holding the record for the oldest human shaped skeletons too (they have some or other name I can't remember), depicting that it is the continent where human-kind started. But I wouldn't know much of that, I just believe what I read and see on National Geographic channel. ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winkel-tripel-projection.jpg

Afaik in the "new world" (australia, america) it's not uncommon that the cut is at the null meridan. I.e. the center of the map is somewhere in the pacific.

I'm not a huge Delphi fan these days, but I can say in Embarcadero's defense, all the above was Borland's fault. Then CodeGear which didn't produce much. It's only since Embarcadero's took over that Delphi is building up steam again and getting some direction.

What is Embarcadero bringing to the table in the XE2 release?

Executive Summary
---------------------------
* 64-bit support (finally)
* FireMonkey ? a scalable vector graphics based GUI framework exploiting GPU capabilities for hardware accelerated cross platform GUI?s.
* Cross-Platform support ? Target Win32 and Win64 with single-source VCL applications or Win32, Win64 and MORE using FireMonkey.
* iOS support for native code FireMonkey apps !! ? Yes folks ? use Delphi to build iPhone and iPad apps that even Steve Jobs will be happy to have in his Store!
* LiveBindings ? a way to create ?live? relationships not just between objects but between individual properties of objects.
* Native Android apps ? using PhoneGap in RadPHP
* Native Android apps ? to come in the future for Delphi (as well as Linux)
* DataSnap client proxy generation ? for Android, .NET, Objective-C, Blackberry, iOS etc etc
* Starter Edition will be available right from the start along with Pro, Enterprise and Architect.
* ALL platforms supported by the cross-platform capabilities will be in ALL editions, including Starter!
* Many other VCL improvements

[The above list is courtesy of: http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=735 ]

No matter how you look at it, that is an impressive list of new features.

If Qt did it, why can't they do it to? It's just a question of adding more APIs for the missing functionality which people were completing

No, it's because Qt was designed from the start and from the ground up to be a cross-platform toolkit. That makes a huge difference. VCL was designed for Win16 (and was inherited from TP for DOS), then molded to Win32. It has so many Windows-ism in it's core, and THAT is what makes VCL so hard to port. Many "features" in VCL just makes no sense on other non-windows platforms.

There is nothing special in the VCL that stops it from being a cross-platform GUI toolkit.

Lots of things that are Windows specific it what stops it. EMB can't change or remove those Windows features because that will break thousands of existing Delphi programs. So what was EMB left with - they had to start something new, with no legacy code to worry about. That is what there cross-platform toolkit is built on.

I guess you just can't see the difference between a company that needs to support tens of thousands of paying customers, compared to a mickey mouse open-source project with no recourse for backward compatibility.

OpenOffice is pretty much a clone of MS Office 97.

Please get your facts right. OpenOffice originated from StarOffice, which was started in 1984 running on computers like the Commodore 64. I remember running StarOffice under OS/2 2.1 & 3.0 (around 1990-1993). All this is long before the release of MS Office 97. Then in 1999 Sun Microsystems bought StarDivision and rebranded StarOffice as OpenOffice.

For more detail see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarOffice

WindowState: wsFullscreen

A recent addition to LCL I believe. VCL didn't need it, because you just used the Win API do do it. It was pretty simple to use too.

TDBNavigator Option to have focusable buttons (useful for mobiles, accessibility)

:-) Introduced 3 or 4 days ago, and with a massive amount of possible problems - as Michael van Canneyt pointed out to you.

A product/toolkit worth using is more than just its number of features. Stability plays a huge roll too. Lazarus is broken even second day. Working features break between every release. EMB can't afford such problems with Delphi.

Small correction, I think this was not a vision or partly a vision, FireMonkey is mostly Eugeny Krukov's KSDev (http://www.ksdev.com/) bought by Embarcadero several months ago. He already done all cross-platform stuff and his library was already fpc-compatible. You can see the screenshots at http://ksdev.blogspot.com/, unfortunately all the demos were closed, but I guess we will see many similarities when the actual XE2 will appear.

Max
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Not true! Qt 1.0 was no great toolkit, but they improved it over time. Similarly you can make gradual small changes so people can adapt their code and gradually improve the toolkit.

Another example: Gtk is full of X11-isms. Many "features" from Gtk like Colormap make sense only in X11.

I guess you just can't see the difference between a company that needs to support tens of thousands of paying customers, compared to a mickey mouse open-source project with no recourse for backward compatibility.

Like .NET (from a huge company with tens of thousands of paying customers) is super backwards compatible?

Anyway, it is totally false that the LCL has no guarantees for backwards compatibility. The LCL adds incompatible changes just as much as Qt, for example, adds such changes. Is fpgui 100% backwards compatible??? If yes, then why LCL-fpgui stops compiling regularly?

Plus, Embarcadero already broke backwards compatibility in Unicode.

> WindowState: wsFullscreen A recent addition to LCL I believe. VCL didn't need it, because you just used the Win API do do it. It was pretty simple to use too.

That's my whole point, one can simply add functionality that was missing and caused people to use the Windows API and it is cross-platform. Like Lazarus does.

A product/toolkit worth using is more than just its number of features. Stability plays a huge roll too. Lazarus is broken even second day. Working features break between every release.

That's totally false. The LCL doesn't break more then any other big software

What other software do you use in trunk as opposed to a stable release? Most you can't anyway.

And other applications dont introduce any compatibility breaks? Even Mac OS X Lion was shipped with a known bug in NSStatusItem which I reported in time to them. Many applications using NSStatusItem will need to adapt their code for this bug. And guess what??? No, you can't custom draw this component. It is the Mac OS X Tray Icon.

Max Vlasov wrote

Small correction, I think this was not a vision or partly a vision, FireMonkey is mostly Eugeny Krukov's KSDev (http://www.ksdev.com/) bought by Embarcadero several months ago. He already done all cross-platform stuff and

I knew that, but irrespective of where they got the code from, the point remains - their cross-platform product is not based on the very Windows centric VCL. This is good for them. VCL will continue to work as normal and their customers will be happy. New projects can use FireMonkey which is cross-platform without any Windows centric limitations.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Lol, so in summary they've done 64 bit support, bought someone else's code, and added a couple of bells and whistles.

Henry

I strongly suspect that the "center of the world" directly depends on the country which produced the map.
It least I know that Russian maps put Russia in the center (which is relatively easy since it is very large anyway), while U.S. maps are centered on American continent. So I think Greame uses African maps ;-)

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Stop cloning VCL and rather innovate. Come up with something better than VCL.

Now as Delphi switches to Firemonky as is cross-platform, it might be a nice idea to offer a Firemonkey choice in Lazarus, as well.

-Michael

Florian Kl?mpfl wrote

This is simply not the goal of the LCL. There are other projects like MSEgui and fpGUI (remember it ;)?) which have the goal to create something different.

MSEGUI does not work with the Lazarus at all IDE and fpGUI needs it's own external GUI designer :(.

-Michael

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Several reasons. but first, we did start out building a VCL for Mac ? but killed it because VCL is really designed for Windows."

Hmmm. AFAIK, LCL works fine for MAC and is greatly VCL compatible.

-Michael

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote

Maybe they killed it because they are not competent enought to port the VCL to other operating systems.

see Kylix....

-Michael

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Has anybody registered a Lazarus4FireMonkey project on SourceForge yet. Let the cloning begin. ;-)

No chance for doing this in the svn ?

-Michael

Alexander Klenin wrote

I strongly suspect that the "center of the world" directly depends on the country which produced the map.

I can't say I have ever seen that. I just did a Google Images search for "World Map", and 99.99% of the world maps showed Africa in the middle. But yes, I did see one or two out of the 63 million Google results showing Australia or America in the center, but that is clearly a very small minority. ;-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Michael Schnell wrote

No chance for doing this in the svn ?

No, it's not compatible with VCL. ;-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

As long as the firemonkey stuff depends from TComponent, nothing needs to be changed. All is in place, even the development of non-TControl stuff can be done with Lazarus as it is today.

Michael.

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

OTOH it would be nice to use the Lazarus IDE with other libraries than LCL. Hard to do, though, since many IDE windows have to be overridden (OI, component palette, form designers, package installer...)

I use Lazarus IDE like that on a daily basis. Lazarus IDE + fpGUI toolkit. F12 brings up the fpGUI Form Designer instead of the LCL one. F1 brings up fpGUI's DocView instead of your web browser with online help. etc. By the way, I do the exact same with MSEide too, though the keyboard shortcut options are not so plentiful in MSEide.

But then, from what I have seen, FireMonkey components are all TComponent descendants, so it should be possible to use the existing LCL designer to drop components on a form. The fancy stuff like the new property editors will have to be coded manually in Lazarus IDE though. FireMonkey uses a new namespace too, which neither FPC or Lazarus supports, but at least you should (in theory) be able to build a basic form.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

> No chance for doing this in the svn ? No, it's not compatible with VCL. ;-)

Of course I do know this.

In the end it's not compatible to the GUI part of the LCL, there are lots of functions in the LCL that are not (necessarily) tied to the GUI.

In fact I did not mean my question as a technical decision but just regarding source code managing. There could be another directory besides the LCL-GUI stuff that also is managed within the Lazarus svn tree.

-Michael

Michael Schnell wrote

Of course I do know this.

You missed my ,
- Graeme -

A choice instead of what?

When FireMonkey is different from the VCL, it's also different from the LCL. Your choice would mean fpMonkey *instead* of Lazarus.

OTOH it would be nice to use the Lazarus IDE with other libraries than LCL. Hard to do, though, since many IDE windows have to be overridden (OI, component palette, form designers, package installer...)

DoDi

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

When FireMonkey is different from the VCL, it's also different from the LCL. Your choice would mean fpMonkey *instead* of Lazarus.

I meant using the Lazarus IDE as a tool for building a Firemonkey application.

Of course the existing GUI support in the LCL would not be usable- We would need a Firemonkey library and a Firemonkey GUI builder. Of course better compatibility (similar to LCL-fpGUI) would be nice but I don't suppose this is possible.

-Michael

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

You missed my for being a very dry person and not a native speaker ;)

But you offered the opportunity to me to publicly state that not everything in the LCL is GUI. This obviously is one of my favorite troll stuff.

-Michael

agreed to a point... many of my maps (used for satellite tracking and various gps related projects) have the UTC meridian in their center which places the americas on the left and everything else on the right... i suspect this might also be the type of map that greame since it does "place africa in the 'center' of the map" ;)

i'm just using this thread as a start for this private notation since it is one that seems to be affected...

numerous of your posts seem to be being duplicated into the list... i don't know why or if other's posts are also being duplicated... i've noticed numerous ones while i've been catching up on the 400+ posts since my last day off work... your post just happened to be one that i decided to query about...

do you have any ideas why i might be seeing this duplication??

I can't tell you a solution as I don't have the problem, but for a quick check whether it's just you or the rest of the mailing list as well, I'd suggest you to take a look at the web archive of the list. As I don't have the link at hand currently I'll describe you how to reach it: Go to http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org, use the "Mailing Lists" link on the left, select the "lazarus" list, there something like "archive" and then e.g. the thread view of this month.

Regards,
Sven

waldo kitty wrote

numerous of your posts seem to be being duplicated into the list... i don't

I think it's a mailing list issue or something. Because I'm also seeing lots of duplicate mails, but they seem to be from Michael Schnell only (as far as I have noticed).

I do notice that when I clicked Reply (in Gmail), it showed your private email address and the mailing list address in the To field. I know MailMan has an option to not send mail duplicates in such cases, but I have no idea if this is enabled or not.

@List Admin,
Any ideas?

2011/8/8 Graeme Geldenhuys :

I don't think it is a list option, but a member option (nodupes -- Does the member want to avoid duplicates of the same message?). Most people have it set. I don't think it filters direct mail.

Vincent

waldo kitty wrote

do you have any ideas why i might be seeing this duplication??

I also have duplicated mails in the folder for this forum.

The reason is:

The list server creates "from" original sender, "to" the list and "cc" me (the recipient)

So you can't "reply to sender" but you need to "reply to all" to send an answer to the list.

When I answer to a post generated by you, you get it twice: directly and through the list.

If you set a rule to move all mails with subject containing [Lazarus] into some folder, both will end there.

Solution: you could modify the rule to handle only posts that are denoted as "to the list".

-Michael

right... and i obviously did something incorrectly since my post went to the list instead of only being in private email :?

yes, IIRC, it was michael that i was attempting to write to privately...

I do notice that when I clicked Reply (in Gmail), it showed your private email address and the mailing list address in the To field.

yes, that's fine in this case... in fact, the same happened for this reply in thunderbird ;)

I know MailMan has an option to not send mail duplicates in such cases, but I have no idea if this is enabled or not.

i have that option turned on so that i'll get both posts when they are sent to me and the list... otherwise i only get one or the other and not the public one as well as the private one...

IMHO it's very humiliating for Borland/Embarcadero to use FPC as a compiler. It's like Microsoft using Open Office to generate PDF from a DOCX file.

Alexsander Rosa wrote

IMHO it's very humiliating for Borland/Embarcadero to use FPC as a compiler. It's like Microsoft using Open Office to generate PDF from a DOCX file.

AFAIK, Microsoft did use Linux (or Unix) for their servers providing Internet functions to the public. I don't know if this is still the case.

-Michael