I changed the Run menu item order based on issue:
19580: The run menu does not have run as first entry

I would need your opinions about if Compile and Build menu entries should be moved from Run- to Project-menu.
They work with a project which suggests moving them. On the other hand there are other similar items for single files in Run menu. They could logically be all in the same Run menu.

Juha
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I would not put them in Project menu.
The items in Project are (mostly) about managing the project.

One could move all build/compile items to a new "Build" menu and in the "Run" menu leave all items related to Run (trace, step etc.)

(FWIW: My old Delphi (D3 Pro) has Compile in the Run menu.)

Just my 2 cents.

Bart

No, please keep them in 'Run'. This is delphi compatible. And as you point out, the run menu logically groups everything related to building/running.

But why not make a package that allows editing/customizing the menu ? If made properly, it could even be used for end-user projects.

Michael.

Makes sense.

On the other hand, eventually the IDE might get menu items like other IDEs for multiple run parameters (run as, run history), extra menu items for debugging stuff, etc. Then the run menu might get quite big.

How does Delphi run a group of projects?

But why not make a package that allows editing/customizing the menu ?

Yes.
The educationlaz package has already an option frame to hide menu items. But its target audience are teachers, not programmers, so the front end will be kept simple / not very detailed.

If made properly, it could even be used for end-user projects.

Mattias

Otherwise the 'project' menu will get quite big.
Specially if 'multiple projects' is implemented.

How does Delphi run a group of projects?

It doesn't, to my knowledge. If you start one, it stops the previous one ? (I haven't tested that in XE, though)

I think that this is more the way to go. The default is good as it is, and people are used to it.

Michael.

--- El lun 20-jun-11, >

IMO

Then we need to define clearly what is our goal, are we (by default) trying to replicate delphi menu layout?, if yes then we can talk about "compatibility" and lets change the whole layout once for all so we can start getting used to it, if not, then this is non sense.

If the argument is better functionality then go for it, but in absence of better arguments I prefer to not move the menu layout until some mechanism for personalization is invented and integrated by default.

Jesus Reyes A.

2011/6/21 Jesus Reyes

Hi

I don't see a reason to follow Delphi's menu layout either.

However other reasons I like the new order with Run as first item for. "Run" is always used to run a project. The IDE takes care of compilation and everything else.
It is the most intuitive order for a new user and that is what counts. The "old" user always gets accustomed to menu order and other GUIs and soon doesn't pay attention to it.

Was your comment mostly about the change I already did inside Run menu, or about the proposed move to project menu?
It seems we are not moving anything now. Later with project group and such new menu entries we can reconsider.

Juha
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Michael van Canneyt wrote

No, please keep them in 'Run'. This is delphi compatible.

I agree with your first part. We are creatures of habit. Most of us know exactly where the menu items are, due to years of Lazarus IDE usage. Changing them in a major way will be very frustrating to all - with near zero real benefits.

As for the "delphi compatible" comment....well, since when is Lazarus IDE's goals to be Delphi compatible with the Delphi IDE? As far as I know, _only the LCL_ falls under the "delphi compatible" goal. The Lazarus IDE is not meant to be Delphi IDE compatible in any way.

But why not make a package that allows editing/customizing the menu ?

A much better idea indeed. Then each developer can tunes there menus to there personal needs - the rest can leave it as is.

Regards,
- Graeme -

No, but the user coming from Delphi (and this is by far the largest part) will look there first.

> But why not make a package that allows editing/customizing the menu ? A much better idea indeed. Then each developer can tunes there menus to there personal needs - the rest can leave it as is.

Exactly. There is no need to change for the sake of changing.

Michael.

No, but the user coming from Delphi (and this is by far the largest part) will look there first.

[rant]

That comes with the territory - Lazarus Delphi. Things are going to be different, no matter how much you wish it wouldn't! If at ANY time, ANY developer switches IDE's, things WILL be different. One of those things will be the menu layout, the other being the editor functionality and behaviour. I don't know of any two IDE's that have the same menu layouts, so why must Lazarus IDE.

Yes, I remember the days after I switched to Lazarus (from Delphi 7). Things where in different places, but it only took a day or two to get used to where things were... all part of the experience (and learning curve) of moving to a new development tool-chain.

But if you want to go that route... being IDE compatible with Delphi, then a few more changes need to be made. CodeTools must disappear. The the Lazarus editor needs to be made slower (and more sh*tty) and with less features. Lazarus Packages need to be removed. Oh, and we would have to add .NET requirements to install and run the IDE!

...basically remove everything that makes Lazarus IDE better than Delphi IDE (debugging being the only exception I can think of). We need no more innovating ideas, we simply need to become Embarcadero drones, and wait for the patent lawsuits to happen.

Sometimes I think some of you take the "delphi compatibility" idea just too far! Lazarus is a good product. It can hold its own - against the best development tool out there! Delphi was a failure (at one point - and is still being debated) - hence the reason many moved to FPC+Lazarus (or other languages completely), so why would you want to clone a doomed project???

[/rant]

Getting back to the point... If somebody can justify why everything must move around in the IDE, the please list those points. If not, then leave theme where they are! Don't move them just because... Remember, people hate change!

Regards,
- Graeme -

[snip]

Exactly what meant with 'Don't just change for the sake of changing'.

Michael.

Please leave Compile as the first entry in the Run menu. I use it far more often than Run and I'm used ti it's location.

(Ctrl-F9 is reserved by my windowmanager (?) in Linux, so I can't use it instead).

Bart

Bart wrote

(Ctrl-F9 is reserved by my windowmanager (?) in Linux, so I can't use it instead).

You do know you can normally remove those reserved keyboard shortcuts? Another standard think I do after a Ubuntu upgrade. I only leave about 3-5 shortcuts reserved to the window manager - the rest are all available to my apps.

And if that doesn't help you can change the bindings for "Compile" in Lazarus as well.

Regards,
Sven

People use both, and as you say, are creatures of habit :-)

Bart wrote

Please leave Compile as the first entry in the Run menu. I use it far more often than Run and I'm used ti it's location.

+1 I am also in favor of moving Compile,Build,Clean,etc back to the top menu items.

It is much quicker to click in one of the top items then going more to the bottom with the mouse, specially in virtual machines.

Plus, that Delphi puts the build in the lower parts just makes this an advantage of Lazarus.

I don't personally mind, but:
- "Compile" and co were always at the top.
- An easy and quick (even Quicker) access to "Run" your app is given, by the "green arrow" speed button, in the toolbar. That is far easier to reach than any entry in a menu

On the other hand, compile entries are now closer to the "build file" entries (ok, that section is a mix of build and run)

Maybe a compromise could be reached. The amoount of "compile" and co entries has grown.

- Keep "Compile", (maybe "build",) and "Abort build" as top entries in the menu.
- Have all the other extended versions together with the "build/run file" section

Of course, then some people may want "quick compile" up too, since it used to be....

just my 2 cents

That change makes me crazy (Run as first entry) #!#"!##"#%#$# ;)

zeljko
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David Copeland wrote

Would you happen to know how in KDE4 (suse 11.4) one would do this? I can't find it to save my life <g>.

I don't really use KDE, but I had OpenSUSE 11.3 setup inside a vm session, so I took a quick look.

Follow these steps:
1. Click Start button (Chameleon button)
2. Select "Personal Settings", or search for "settings" in kicker, and then select "Personal Settings" from the search results.
3. Now you should have a control panel like window open. Select "Keyboard & Mouse" under the Computer Administration section.
4. Now there are two sections which contain keyboard shortcuts, look in both: "Standard Keyboard Shortcuts" & "Global Keyboard Shortcuts".

Hope that helps.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Sven Barth wrote

On 21.06.2011 20:26, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

[about changing keybindings for my WM]

And if that doesn't help you can change the bindings for "Compile" in Lazarus as well.

Oh, please no!

It took me > 1 year to adjust to the changes from TP 6 -> Delphi 1

(in TP Compile used to be Alt-F9, Run was Ctrl-F9)

Bart

It is your decision as the keyboard settings are yours. I just suggested an alternative if you don't want to adjust the settings of the window manager.

It took me> 1 year to adjust to the changes from TP 6 -> Delphi 1 (in TP Compile used to be Alt-F9, Run was Ctrl-F9)

Regards,
Sven

Hi

I knew I would get in trouble when I started to change the menu structure. In some places the structure was clearly wrong but in some others it is a matter of opinion and habbit.

This one is a matter of opinion and habbit.
I like the new order because I never use "Build" myself. I hit "Run" and the project is built automatically.
Why would someone want to build a project without running it? Running is the ultimate goal, right?

Now I realized that KDE really graps Ctrl-F9 and I didn't find a way to change it.
F9 works well though.

What shall I do with this ? Some people like the change and some people expect me to revert it.

Juha
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My 2 cents. revert. If it isn't a clear case, conservative may be better.

Or split, IMHO having 2 (max 3) entries above run, is ok (but currently it's 5):
(Though that may create more discussions, than it solves)

- Compile (or even just Quick Compile)
- maybe Quick Compile OR Build
- Abort
- -----
- Run
...
- ----
other build options

Compile, is include in build.
but "quick compile" might be done without Runto follow and "build" might want to be forced before run

Huh ?

I do build all the time, to check whether my code compiles. It is very seldom that I do run.
Depending on the project, I even never hit run.

Michael.

Juha Manninen wrote

Why would someone want to build a project without running it? Running is the ultimate goal, right?

Sorry mate, I can count on my one hand how many times I have clicked Run this year. I *always* Compile or Build (latter being necessary if Lazarus or FPC doesn't correctly detected changed units - which does happen from time to time). I also mostly run my apps outside the IDE - simply because the integrated debugger just doesn't do it for me. Or because I am working on a CGI app, so clicking Run is pointless.

Now I realized that KDE really graps Ctrl-F9 and I didn't find a way to change it.

Earlier I posted a message how or where to change that keyboard shortcut in KDE - it's under the "Global Keyboard Shortcuts" settings.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Using a base 3 counting system (finger in, finger out, finger half out) 3 ^^5 = 243. So a bit more than once a day?

Martin wrote

Using a base 3 counting system (finger in, finger out, finger half out) 3 ^^5 = 243. So a bit more than once a day?

:-) I was thinking more in the lines of 1 thru 5. ;-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Me neither ... I use Run rarely .. prefer debugging from console :) So must used by me is Compile (I use Build when I touch some of my packages or changed lazarus production version).

zeljko

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--- El jue 23-jun-11, zeljko escribi?:

De: zeljko
Asunto: Re: [Lazarus] Compile and Build menu entries, Run- or Project-menu? A: "Lazarus mailing list"
Fecha: jueves, 23 de junio de 2011, 11:02

#yiv1518935690 p, #yiv1518935690 li {white-space:pre-wrap;}

Me neither ... I use Run rarely .. prefer debugging from console :) So must used by me is Compile (I use Build when I touch some of my packages or changed lazarus production version).

zeljko

For me "Run" is the menu where "Compile" commands are. Menus are most of time accessed by mouse, and for that "Run" commands on main toolbar are accessed quickly, but there are no "Compile" commands on toolbar (hint).

Given that many people see the "Run" menu where "Compile" commands are, I wonder if we should rename it to "Compile", or even doing some justice to "Compile & Run" ;)

Jesus Reyes A.
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2011/6/23 Juha Manninen :

I use it as a syntax checker. Some projects cannot be run by the IDE (libraries, fpwm, android apps). Some projects I prefer to debug in the console. etc

What shall I do with this ? Some people like the change and some people expect me to revert it. From what I read the majority was against, so IMHO: revert

thanks =)

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote

I use it as a syntax checker. Some projects cannot be run by the IDE (libraries, fpwm, android apps). Some projects I prefer to debug in the console. etc

+1

> What shall I do with this ? Some people like the change and some people > expect me to revert it. >From what I read the majority was against, so IMHO: revert

+1

Bart

2011/6/23 Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

I reverted it.

And true, I also used Ctrl-F9 in Delphi for locating syntax errors, even when I knew the code had them.
With Lazarus + FPC compilation is slower and I don't use it like that.

Juha
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And that's why a single solution can not fit everybody's opinion :-(

I like the new order because I never use "Build" myself. I hit "Run" and the project is built automatically. Why would someone want to build a project without running it?

A clean build can fix errors caused by malfunction in the automatisms.

Why stick with a *fixed* layout structure and shortcuts? Make it all configurable, and all trouble and discussions go away :-)

In the days of Win16 I frequently updated the menus and dialogs of binary applications, by editing their resources with the Borland Resource editor. Nowadays, or on other platforms, such user editable resources are no more available <sigh>. I think that it's time to provide the users with more configuration features, where the startup config wizard is a good example.

A generalized menu and shortcut editor, for use also in other applications, would be a very nice component. A visual menu designer already exists, why not use it for reconfiguring menus also at runtime, with drag&drop and template features? The same for the toolbars, which also should become editable as in Delphi :-)
[I already saw screenshots of Lazarus with a definitely changed layout of the MainBar]

What's needed for that purpose? IMO a list of available Actions is required, with editable shortcuts and icons. Next comes a Menu editor, that allows at least to add and remove menu entries and submenus, and to connect the entries to actions. Captions can stay predefined, to prevent nationalization trouble. Nonetheless a translation manager would be nice, too. A GUI with drag&drop would be nice, borrowed from the according designers. Finally the result should be stored in a config file, for further use and editing. Support for multiple config files would be nice, at least it should be possible to load (preconfigured) config files, and to save one as the config to use (default name?).

For the visual representation of menus a *horizontal* TreeView would be nice. I doubt that such an Orientation feature already exists, but it would be fun to implement such a component, possibly based on the Virtual TreeView, or on nestable ListViews. I also could supply an according DockManager...

DoDi

--- El jue 23-jun-11, Hans-Peter Diettrich escribi?:

I frequently crosscompile from linux 64 to win32 x86, even if I want to run it, it wouldn't work.

Jesus Reyes A.

Jesus Reyes wrote

For me "Run" is the menu where "Compile" commands are. Menus are most of time accessed by mouse, and for that "Run" commands on main toolbar are accessed quickly, but there are no "Compile" commands on toolbar (hint).

HINT:
It has been possible for many years. Install the "editor toolbar" add-on, then place the "Compile" and "Build" items on that editor toolbar. One click access - no problems! ;-)

I guess if the main form's toolbar was configurable, the editor toolbar add-on wouldn't have been needed. But the add-on has served me well for the last 3 or so years.

HINT #2:
Place the Jump Back/Forward items on the toolbar too. This allows you to reserve your code navigation with the mouse - instead of keyboard shorcuts. Seeing that you need a mouse to Ctrl+Click, the mouse for going back in history seems logical.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote

Some projects cannot be run by the IDE (libraries, fpwm, android apps).

Add to that list... console apps, web/cgi apps etc.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Juha Manninen wrote

And true, I also used Ctrl-F9 in Delphi for locating syntax errors, even when I knew the code had them. With Lazarus + FPC compilation is slower and I don't use it like that.

Try "Quick Compile" instead. It removes the linking part, so goes a bit faster (at least under Linux).

Regards,
- Graeme -

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

For the visual representation of menus a *horizontal* TreeView would be nice. I doubt that such an Orientation feature already exists, but it

If I understood you correctly, then that already exists in the "editor toolbar" add-on. My implementation was very specific to Lazarus IDE, so doesn't work for general LCL based applications though. But one should be able to do something similar with Action's and ActionLists via the Category property or something.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Get a 5 button mouse.
The btn 4 and 5 (like in firefox, and other) can be used to go forward and backward on the history

yeah, this is me, too... i build to ensure my code compiles... after i add more and check the build, i /might/ run it to see if it actually operates as designed and/or expected ;)

as for the menu layout, i don't have an opinion, really... i'm still in the process of learning the layout, the whole entire new paradigm of GUI stuffs, and what i cannot do that i used to do all the time in TP ;)

2011/6/24 waldo kitty

as for the menu layout, i don't have an opinion, really... i'm still in the process of learning the layout, the whole entire new paradigm of GUI stuffs, and what i cannot do that i used to do all the time in TP ;)

What exactly could you do in TP that you can't do in Lazarus? We can improve the IDE + menus.

Juha
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Hi Graeme,

[About Ctrl-F9 as a shortcut for KDE WM]

Well, it took me quite some time (Suse 10.0 Nl-nl) It actually was " Start -> Configurateiecentrum" this launches kcontrol It then took me > 30 minutes to finally find it under "Regio en toegankelijkheid" (Regional settings and accessability") Not quite where I expected it to be.

But now I can finally use Ctrl-F9 to compile my programs in Lazarus. Thanks very much.

Bart