Is Firebird really free?

If you?re expecting some sensation, I?ll not make you happy. Shortly, yes, Firebird is free, completely. You can use it wherever you want and you don?t have to pay anything nor release sources of your application nor ?

On the other hand, the whole truth, considering all the edge cases and consequences, is different. To keep high quality of final product, keep adding new features, provide bug fixes ? simply moving forward ? the creator needs some resources. If these resources will not be available, it will be effectively dead. The resources I?m here talking about, in case of Firebird, are people doing full time or regular development. These people have families, houses, hobbies, ? And for all of these items you need money (in our society [image: :)] ). They?re not doing it for fun (only), but also for living as well.

So Firebird actually needs some money to keep moving. It doesn?t have licenses to buy or something like that. We?re simply relying on the fact, that people using it, similar to people working on it, do love it. And are educated enough to realize all this and provide, even small, support. Thus next time you?ll be deploying your application with Firebird, think about sending $10 or even $1. I bet it?s nothing for you (compared to price of the application or money you?re paying for toilet paper in your office). And ten thousand people (not much) donating $10 makes a huge difference. It?s not only about few donating $10000.

And by the way, Firebird is not ?just? engine, but tools around too: .NET driver [image: ;)] , Java driver, documentation, QA, ?, you name it. -------------- next part --------------
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Osvaldo Filho wrote

Is Firebird really free?

What exactly is FIREBIRD????
Something connected to Lazarus or FreePascal?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=firebird&l=1

Interesting response without any substance....

You are referring to a webpage which holds no information as to WHAT Firebird really is. It contains loads of info like many other commercial sites do, i.e. only for already informed viewers. "Latest release", "Next Event", "Roadmap", "Project development news", "Currently testing" etc etc etc.
But not a single word is saying anything about what the h-ck Firebird is all about.

My question still stands:
What purpose does Firebird have and what relation to Lazarus does it have since the post was placed in this newsgroup/mail list?

And to the original poster:
Your aim with the posting is obviously that you want to get money for a free product. Your goal would be easier to reach if you spent at least one or two lines explaining *what* your prduct really does. I am sure it has some (hidden) purpose, but it is not clear to a reader of your post what that may be....

Osvaldo Filho wrote

And by the way, Firebird is not ?just? engine, but tools around too: .NET driver [image: ;)] , Java driver, documentation, QA,

, you name it.

OK, but what is then the purpose of the Firebird "engine"???? It seems to be only fair to the reader to explain that *before* going into all this jumbo talk about tools and drivers etc..

2010/12/5 Bo Berglund :

It says: Firebird, your open source RDBMS.

Do you understand what that means?

Which of those four words is unclear to you?

Vincent

Not at all, he was showing you how to use Google.

It's a database. Look it up on Wikipaedia.

Sorry to say so, but your comprehension skills seem to be pretty low. Please read the message again (and again, and again), it is NOT about Firebird and/or its internals, it is about an Open Source Project and its financing ... which is also the reason why it was posted here, because Lazarus (and FPC) are open source projects as well ;-)

wtf...

On the left menu, it says "New visitors" (hint: that's you). Immediately below that, it says "ABOUT FIREBIRD" (hint: this is what you want to find out).

Actually the message confused me too, because there is no text in the body explaining what the author wanted to say with it. I didn't read the subject so I initially concluded that he was spamming our mailling list.

Indeed it is implicit what he mens if you read the subject, but some kind of explanation in the body of the message would certainly have helped avoid missunderstandment.

Op 2010-12-05 11:28, Bo Berglund het geskryf:

You are referring to a webpage which holds no information as to WHAT Firebird really is. It contains loads of info like many other

A kind suggestion: Have your eyes tested very soon.

In the title of that website, even the title of your Web Browser it lists: RDBMS (Relational Database Management System).

Lets repeat slowly: :-)

Aaaaaa Re-la-tion-al Daaaa-taaaa-base Maaaa-nage-meeeeent Syyyys-tem

It short:
The core project revolves around a database server. Where the hell have you been, not to know about Firebird RDBMS?

What purpose does Firebird have and what relation to Lazarus does it have since the post was placed in this newsgroup/mail list?

It's a very powerful and efficient and easy to deploy database server. (about a 10MB install under Windows for a full fledged relational database server) It's an open source project just like Lazarus. Connection components to Firebird come standard with FPC and Lazarus! Firebird was a fork from Borland's Interbase database server.

Next time, read the website information in detail or use other Google links, before you make another fool of yourself.

Regards,
- Graeme -

06.12.2010 14:30, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
...

Next time, read the website information in detail or use other Google links, before you make another fool of yourself.

Graeme, I think you are a bit angry last time.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin

This is not going to end well.

:+/

OK, I think you've made the point adequately. Now I feel that it really would be a good idea if everybody backed away slowly with their hands in sight otherwise somebody's going to get hurt.

Back to the topic: I think the Lazarus project could SELL products like this:
http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=648

Ubuntu also has a service called "Ubuntu Advantage" which gives advantages to enterprises that choose to pay a fee, like a network admin tool, a 24/7 support phone line and access to an exclusive online knowledge base "written and audited by senior engineers". I do not know what kind of "advantages" the Lazarus/FPC team could offer, but it is a valid business model. http://www.canonical.com/enterprise-services/ubuntu-advantage

2010/12/2 Osvaldo Filho

2010/12/6 Alexsander Rosa

Back to the topic: I think the Lazarus project could SELL products like this: http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=648

You mean like: http://www.cafepress.com/miraclec

Michael, how many did you sell over the years?

Vincent
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Here in Brazil there's an online store called "Loja Geek" that sells -- among other things -- open-source related t-shirts with nice designs. They even have a "section" called "Languages and Development": http://www.lojageek.com/projetos-livres/linguagens-desenvolvimento.html

I've googled their royalties agreements and found this about GNOME products: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-announce/2010-June/msg00005.html

* Ronaldo Padula (Loja Geek Depto Comercial) is making arrangements

I think they could sell Lazarus/FPC merchandise too. PS: Lazarus needs a cool logo like the rest of the Open Source projects...

2010/12/6 Vincent Snijders

Like http://www.lazarussupport.com/lazarus/Support ;) ?

Both Ubuntu links are very easy to website.
Compare that to www.lazarus.freepascal.org website.

2010/12/6 Florian Klaempfl

Wow, pity that such geezmos wasn't available during lazarus day :)

2010/12/6 zeljko :

I recovered that link from webarchive.org.
They were available during the first 9(?) years of this century. They are still are :-)

Little to none. It has been years since anything was order.

Just checked. The last order was my own order in July 2003.

I bought myself a mug.

:-)

You mean like this:
http://www.lazarussupport.com/lazarus/Support
http://www.lazarussupport.com/lazarus/Support?section2=LazarusServerEdition

?

Joost.

Alexsander Rosa wrote

Both Ubuntu links are very easy to website. Compare that to www.lazarus.freepascal.org website.

Yes, but the big difference is that Ubuntu is in fact a commercial company. So they can offer the support on their main product-page.

Lazarus and Free Pascal are really driven by volunteers, and so those who offer support (Like on the LazarusSupport website) have their own website. It would not be fair to place links to LazarusSupport as if it was also from the main teams.

Otoh: you will see google-advertisements for the LazarusSupport website soon.

Joost.

I see the "service" part of the so-called "money model" is ok, then. We have only to improve and/or create a cool LOGO to sell more apparel. Take a look at some other "programming tools" logos I've found online:

Delphi (auto parts)
http://delphi.com/images/app/logoDelphiMain.gif (cool)

Embarcadero (cool logo) and Delphi XE (cool helmet) http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi

http://www.wxwidgets.org/logo9.jpg (ugly font)
http://java.sun.com/logos/images/Java_logo.gif (cool) http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/_base_v1/images/chrome/visual_studio_logo.png(nice) http://qt.nokia.com/logo.png (nice)
http://techie-blogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/gtk_logo1.png (nice for a t-shirt)

Lazarus does not have a logo like these, the closest thing it has is the cheetah photo.

2010/12/6 Joost van der Sluis

The FPC and Lazarus teams just should offer nothing at extra cost. That's the privilege of third parties, which make money from the lack of documentation, installation trouble and whatever else could not be achieved or offered by the developers. Free software projects should not be crippled in any way, for the purpose of making money with intentionally hidden or removed features or other material.

DoDi

[snip]

even bigger OT:
seems the traditional 'logo' of Delphi at Borland and now Embracadero was a greek or roman theme - temple, now helmet;
And the Embracadero site linked above has a motion-blurred image of a cycle racer (in a helmet :) )

So how about Lazarus logo having a (blue) cheetah head in a (professional, racing) bicycle or motorcycle helmet ?
(just an idea ;)

:)

L.
(p.s. the blue cheetah scheme of icons is cool for the application itself, I've no problem with that at all)

I'd like to buy a sweatshirt, a mousepad and 3 mugs. Unfortunately, neither visa nor paypal are acceptable methods of payment for me. I prefer to get a bill with my stuff. If that's impossible, I'd also accept paying "per Nachnahme".

However, these are only toys. I can buy them for private joy, but not for my (1.125 man) company. If there were something like "Current FPC Docs in PDF and HTML on CD" for e.g. 100,- Euro + Tax, I'd buy that once a year.

regards
Burkhard

Hi. I've been following this thread.

A few years ago, I suggested (with another email address) to try to make a foundation, like "Open Office" foundation,
for FPC or/and Lazarus, in this list. But, several people disapproved.

Why I think its a good idea to have a "foundation" or group ?

I observe that Lazarus like any other open source tools, depends a lot on how many time developers
can apply, and some of us, just doesn't have it.

By example, Some years ago, I had some projects that I could use Lazarus, but, it was very "immature",
at that time. Some customers didn't like Delphi, because it was "deprecated" by Borland,
but where following the "open source" hype.

I read on the net similar stuff, about other development tools.

I had to develop apps. using other software (Java / PHP / ".NET" ), and I didn't have time to participate
in Lazarus. At the same time, I read about "Google's Summer of Code" & bounties.

Lazarus could do something similar, If a lazarus developer that doesn't have a project or a job at the moment,
could work for a "bounty", finishing something missing or that requires updates, and pay his/hers bills.

Personally, I try to participate with lazarus, free (as free shirt), not for any money, but my work doesn't allow it.

We already have problems, because Lazarus is Pascal (Object and Class Oriented Pascal),
and everybody thinks is obsolete, or doesn't have a full Web IDE like "Java Server Pages" or ".Net Web".

For example, if I someone go to Open Source Conference promoting Lazarus, he could sale some t-shirts.

Just some toughts. Cheers.

stardev tod mramirez tod gmail ta com

This is why a Free Pascal / Lazarus/ "FP&L" / ObjectFlorian Pascal ( ;) ) ( pick your TLA ) Foundation comes in sight ...

" ....

Software is a conversation, between the software developer and the user. But for that conversation to happen requires a lot of work beyond the software development. It takes marketing, yes, but also sales, and public relations, and an office, and a network, and infrastructure, and air conditioning in the office, and customer service, and accounting, and a bunch of other support tasks.

But what do software developers do? They design and write code, they layout screens, they debug, they integrate, and they check things into the source code control repository.

The level a programmer works at (say, Emacs) is too abstract to support a business. Developers working at the developer abstraction layer need an implementation layer -- an organization that takes their code and turns it into products. Dolly Parton, working at the "singing a nice song" layer, needs a huge implementation layer too, to make the records and book the concert halls and take the tickets and set up the audio gear and promote the records and collect the royalties.

... "

PLz read it carefully ...

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/DevelopmentAbstraction.html

regards,

2010/12/6 Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis :

This is why a Free Pascal / Lazarus/ "FP&L" / ObjectFlorian Pascal ( ;) ) ( pick your TLA ) Foundation comes in sight ...

This mail, http:/msg06878.html
is stil up to date. Users, feel free to unite and create a foundation.

Vincent

???? 6/12/2010 9:57 ??, ?/? Vincent Snijders ??????:

It's not that simple otherwise it will be already done.

So lets take it bit by bit, starting with moving this discussion to lazarus / fpc other mailing lists.

regards,

Another example of 'let's go and you do it'... That's not how things get done. I.e. if it's too difficult for you, means _you_ can't. (not that I know either...)

Back to your ranks, soldier! Gimme 20!

L.

???? 7/12/2010 10:52 ??, ?/? Lukasz Sokol ??????:

I shouldn't reply but, you're right stating that you don't know.

"Ignorance should be distinguished from stupidity
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupidity>, although both can lead to "unwise <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom>" acts. Also, if important information is available, one may fail to acquire it due to lack of intelligence (not realizing its importance, or not understanding it)."

regards,

I should not reply either, but as you are indirectly telling me I am stupid and ignorant, sprinkling it with wikipedia definitions like they grew on trees then I have nothing else to say than

WELCOME TO MY KILLFILE.

I shall never read anything you post again, as it is worthless, empty and showing people what should they do without doing anything yourself (I'm sure there is a word for that in your language) and very probable that you want to claim this was your idea if it ever happens.

L.

Oh by the way,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_%28Usenet%29
L.

2010/12/7 Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis :

Setting up a FPC/Lazarus foundation is on topic for this mailing list, IMHO.

This paragraph is not really on topic on this mailing list.

Vincent

???? 7/12/2010 11:52 ??, ?/? Lukasz Sokol ??????:

I should not reply either, but as you are indirectly telling me I am stupid and ignorant, sprinkling it with wikipedia definitions like they grew on trees then I have nothing else to say than

I trully apologize if my mail implied that you're stupid but i'm clearly saying that if you start to critisize people without knowing his knowledge or level of experience reg. the subject then yes you were acted as an ignorant in this case.

Plz, realize that not everybody has the same sence of humor as you,

"... Back to your ranks, soldier! Gimme 20! "

regards,

Alexsander, you're right. I just though (raw idea, please don't beat too hard :). It may be some existing delphi project porting for other platforms and the team can work for money under NDA, but.. everything that involves changing (improving) rtl/lazarus code, is not under nda. I know there are not so many projects for this scenario, but just imagine fantastic request from the Skype team :)...

Max Vlasov
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I'd like to buy a sweatshirt, a mousepad and 3 mugs. Unfortunately, neither visa nor paypal are acceptable methods of payment for me. I prefer to get a bill with my stuff. If that's impossible, I'd also accept paying "per Nachnahme".

That's C.O.D. (Cash On Delivery)

However, these are only toys. I can buy them for private joy, but not for my (1.125 man) company. If there were something like "Current FPC Docs in PDF and HTML on CD" for e.g. 100,- Euro + Tax, I'd buy that once a year.

I see two possible solutions for the documentation problem:
1) document the implementation
2) implement what's documented

For non-toy use I'd prefer the second alternative, because
- it's easier to make something work as it should,
- the topics deserve no updates but an "implemented" note
- availability on platforms also only deserves a note
- new revisions deserve no rescan nor big updates
- the documentation can never be seriously outdated

DoDi

Lazarus and Free Pascal are really driven by volunteers, and so those who offer support (Like on the LazarusSupport website) have their own website. It would not be fair to place links to LazarusSupport as if it was also from the main teams.

It's not a matter of fairness, but a matter of usability. The team provides a software that, for itself, is not very usable for everyday or commercial use. The service providers guarantee the continued use of the software to their customers, and may support their own stable branches. They are not paid for providing the software, instead they are paid for their assurance of usability of the software.

Not to forget that there can exist a cash flow, from the service providers to the developers, for the implementation of requested features or bugfixes.

DoDi

[..]

No no, you got me wrong. It's not about the docs but about something a company can buy, something the tax office would accept as investment. It's about a way to contribute money to the fpc/lazarus team and deduct it from my income.

regards
Burkhard