I am new to Lazarus but I have noted that the controls I put on a form look very "flat"...
I am used to having sunken controls, but there seems to be no place to set such a property. Am I missing something here?
The application now looks like a Java app. :-(

Bo Berglund

Which controls, which widgetset and which OS?

Hmm, I thougt that the idea behind FPC/Lazarus was that you "write once compile everywhere" and then the question of OS becomes moot.

The controls I put on my form were simply a TButton and 3 TEdits. I am testing Lazarus on a WinXP virtual machine at the moment because I am used to Windows. But the target eventually will be Linux (Debian) on an embedded card with a touch LCD screen.

I thought that I would not need to develop on that limited platform but could do everything on Windows, then compile for the Linux platform and go from there.

But your comment indicates to me that the "compile everywhere" is not working to create an application that looks the same everywhere...

Or maybe it does but then one has to accept flat form faces in Java style?

That's the idea. The reason he asks is because your original question is so vague that we need some more info to look somewhere. For instance, some gtk2 themes do look flat, so that would be normal.

The controls I put on my form were simply a TButton and 3 TEdits. I am testing Lazarus on a WinXP virtual machine at the moment because I am used to Windows. But the target eventually will be Linux (Debian) on an embedded card with a touch LCD screen.

In windows, the lcl uses native winapi to draw most components, so they should look like all the buttons and edits on your system. On my winxp machine the buttons and edits are definitely not flat.

But your comment indicates to me that the "compile everywhere" is not working to create an application that looks the same everywhere...

Now that is a ridiculous assumption. He just asked for more information.

Show us some screenshots of how it looks now and how you want it to look.

Henry

Hello Lazarus-List,

you wrote

>Which controls, which widgetset and which OS?

BB> Hmm, I thougt that the idea behind FPC/Lazarus was that you "write BB> once compile everywhere" and then the question of OS becomes moot.

Each OS and widgetset combination will have different results.

BB> But your comment indicates to me that the "compile everywhere" is not BB> working to create an application that looks the same everywhere...

One thing is compile everywhere and look native and other is compile everywhere and keep same look and fill across platforms.

Lazarus widgetsets usually try to match the target operative system look and feel so a GTK2 application in Linux will look very similar to a GTK2 application in Windows, but different than a native Windows application. To keep look and feel across platforms use fpGUI instead Lazarus/LCL.

BB> Or maybe it does but then one has to accept flat form faces in Java BB> style?

What is flat for you ?

How can I show screenshots in a newsgroup?
I don't have a webserver to put them on...

2010/11/9 Bo Berglund :

If you were sending regular emails, you can add an image as attachment. I suppose for news message you can add attachments too, but I am not sure about that.

Make sure that the size of the screenshot is smaller than 100 kB.

VIncent

OK I will try. I am using Forte Free Agent via GMANE news mirror of the list.
I have added two PNG images (total size 17kb), one of the test program that made me ask in the first place. THe other is just the same type of program created in Delphi 7 on the same PC.
See the difference?

Bo Berglund

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end

Bo Berglund wrote

So it looks like lazarus is obeying the correct theme, but delphi 7 is showing the "classic xp" theme. How does this compare to the other applications?

Henry

Why is the lazarus looks correct and "classic xp" the wrong theme? My preferences are different.
If I want the programs to look like on XP how do I go about it?

In Delphi I can "flatten" the edit control by setting property Ctrl3D to false (it defaults to true), but in Lazarus there is no such property.....
And buttons cannot be flattened in Delphi7.

Note that I am just exploring the Lazarus/FPC capabilities before I embark on bigtime development to make the Linux target program, which I want to not be flat looking.

Right.

Either you want the same look on every platform (using e.g. fpGUI), OR you want your application to use platform/widgetset specific controls, possibly with themes, and have to accept possibly different look, size and behaviour of such controls.

DoDi

Because your computer is not currently set to the classic theme.

My preferences are different. If I want the programs to look like on XP how do I go about it?

Change your computer to use the classic theme.

See attached for how a simple lazarus program looks under the two themes.

Henry
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2010/11/10 Henry Vermaak :

> My preferences are different. > If I want the programs to look like on XP how do I go about it? Change your computer to use the classic theme.

Sorry I'm a noob when it comes to Windows. But can't you simply remove the manifest file, or update the manifest file to tell it to use old standard controls or something. I vaguely remember reading something like that. I believe you can even let D7 apps use a manifest file under XP.

Hello Lazarus-List,

Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 10:46:29 PM, you wrote:

BB> Why is the lazarus looks correct and "classic xp" the wrong theme? BB> My preferences are different.
BB> If I want the programs to look like on XP how do I go about it?

Disable using manifest file in Project Properties. Delphi 7 is before WinXP so it does not honor the theme settings, while in Lazarus they are native. This is the first time I see a complaint about "I like the outdated mode" instead "I like the new look" :-)

BB> In Delphi I can "flatten" the edit control by setting property Ctrl3D BB> to false (it defaults to true), but in Lazarus there is no such BB> property.....
BB> And buttons cannot be flattened in Delphi7.

Put your WindowsXP as Classic theme and everything looks like Delphi7 applications, including the Lazarus ones. Ctrl3D is deprecated and does nothing in WinXP and newer systems with themes.

BB> Note that I am just exploring the Lazarus/FPC capabilities before I BB> embark on bigtime development to make the Linux target program, which BB> I want to not be flat looking.

The flat look is defined by your theme, is not a Lazarus problem/bug the user decides how they visual objects looks, not the application developer. In Linux, using GTK in example, is the GTK engine which based in user settings decide how objects will look.

Bo Berglund wrote

But your comment indicates to me that the "compile everywhere" is not working to create an application that looks the same everywhere...

"write once, compile everywhere" has never included "look the same everywhere"... however, some widget sets do allow for this... fpGUI is one IIRC... however this doesn't mean that it will look like the rest of the current platform's interface ;)

Henry Vermaak wrote

See attached for how a simple lazarus program looks under the two themes.

simple classic looks the best to me of those two offered... FWTW... i'm playing "catch up" again :?

Op 2010-11-10 01:10, Jos? Mejuto het geskryf:

are native. This is the first time I see a complaint about "I like the outdated mode" instead "I like the new look" :-)

Well then, here is another one. I much prefer the original (Win 2000) look, even in XP. If I was two years old and Teletubbies were my heroes, then the default Lunar ("Teletubbies") theme would have been it, but I'm not two. :)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Lazarus has an option to skip manifest generation in the project options for those who need an old look and feel.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

Bo Berglund wrote

How can I show screenshots in a newsgroup? I don't have a webserver to put them on...

Google for Imageshack

Ah, and in general, please read this:

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum_.3F

AFAIK I have never set a Theme in Windows, at least not on this virtual computer I am using for development. I have set the background to a solid color not to waste resources on imagery etc, but apart from that I did nothing I remember now.
I tend to keep my development machines as simple as possible to reserve resources where they are needed. So I always switch off the Microsoft "goodies" like animating the minimization of windows and such.

But the ONLY application that shows this strange (to me) different view on the PC is the Lazarus generated one, all other applications seem not to bother with whatever theme setting error is done.

> My preferences are different. > If I want the programs to look like on XP how do I go about it? Change your computer to use the classic theme.

How do I do that?

See attached for how a simple lazarus program looks under the two themes.

There you go! How did you set up Lazarus to produce the one with the 3D look? That is the style I am after.

Bo Berglund wrote

There you go! How did you set up Lazarus to produce the one with the 3D look? That is the style I am after.

I changed my computer to the classic theme. See the advice in this thread about the manifest file, too.

Henry

Bo Berglund wrote

> See attached for how a simple lazarus program looks under the two themes. There you go! How did you set up Lazarus to produce the one with the 3D look? That is the style I am after.

IIRC you mentioned you want that look cross platform?

If so:
changing theme => the app will look like that on computers with that theme, it will look different on computers with other themes (never mind which OS)
add/remove manifest => that is windows only.

In short, you may configure *your* computer, so it looks fine. But on another computer (same or other OS) it will look different.

Lazarus does not have ctrl3d, nor any equivalent.
Lazarus does not force a certain look, it tries it's best to honour the settings of the person using your app. And if that person has "flat" settings, then there is little you can do.

You can add panels or bevels around all edits, and simulate the look, but that is a big resource wastage. And may have the strangest visual side-effect. (Since a button/edit on gtk looks very different from one on w32, and again from QT, or Carbon).

If you wish to ignore your users choice, in a cross-platform manner you can use either msegui/mseide or fpgui.
They look the same on every platform, but they *may* (more or less) look very different from any native app.

Thanks,
this explains what is going on.
I also changed theme to "Windows Classic" (after first saving my own modified theme) and as by magic the form turned 3D also in the IDE design environment.
Then changed back to my saved theme and Lazarus switched to flat again.
Then I unchecked the project option for the manifest and compiled my application again and started it. Now it was 3D even though the IDE showed it flat.

Strange, but now I know how to handle
Bo Berglund
Developer in Sweden

Please, I am only struggling to get the look understandable for me. I never wanted to start a war or anything. And my program will not be distributed as software, it will run on an embedded ARM based microcontroller as a front end to a data acquisition system. So I will have control over the hardware, operating system and software myself.

My concern was that I could not for the life of me understand why the 3D look was not present in Lazarus....

I beg to disagree. I have the XP theme (modified) on my PC and all other applications including new and old ones show 3D controls of all kinds.
Repeating that I have myself switched my Windows theme to flat is not going to make it any more true, I have not....

Hello Lazarus-List,

BB> I beg to disagree. I have the XP theme (modified) on my PC and all BB> other applications including new and old ones show 3D controls of all BB> kinds.

You can disagree, of course, but that does not change the fact how WinXP theming works. An application designed to work in WinXP or upper must honor themes. Just open notepad, and go to "Format -> Fonts" do they look "flat" ? Change your theme to classic windows and look at the font selection in Notepad... does it looks 3D ?

BB> Repeating that I have myself switched my Windows theme to flat is not BB> going to make it any more true, I have not....

Take your own conclusions. I hope to not sound rude but the fact that everybody here answer you the same, does not means nothing for you ?

Strange, but now I know how to handle you elaborate why you think this is strange?

It is consistent and the way it is supposed to work, because Lazarus follows the theme settings of the user as much as possible. Therefor you get apps that have the native look of the target platform, no matter if it is Win, Mac or Linux. This is one goal of Lazarus, so I am really interested what you think is strange about this behaviour.

R.

The strange thing is that EVERYTHING else on the XP development PC (all applications with no exception) shows up as 3D EXCEPT the program I created with Lazarus.

The explanation that Lazarus follows the native look of the operating system it runs on based on the user theme setting does not hold (for my understanding at least) because this is the SINGLE case of flatness among each and every application on this PC. And that includes the tools and utilities included with WinXP.
So the native look IS 3D when Lazarus builds the flat looking application...

To me the explanations given here therefore are strange. Maybe you are implying that the operating system *is* set to a flat theme, only it does not show up?....

But unchecking the "Manifest" checkbox in the project properties cures this for me, at least in the dev PC. So that is what I will do.

And I would not have asked if I had done the tests in UBUNTU and they showed the flatness because I am not used to how Ubuntu should look so I could not claim anything. WinXP on the other hand is something I have used for years and I am used to how it looks....

Bo Berglund wrote

The strange thing is that EVERYTHING else on the XP development PC (all applications with no exception) shows up as 3D EXCEPT the program I created with Lazarus.

To all the discussion I can only add one thing/comment/question: Maybe you are using your customized theme? If it is so - you should create bug report (or a post to this group at first) with description what you have changed in your theme (comparing to default winxp theme).

Regards
Zilvinas Ledas

Bo, what's so special about your windows ? I just checked, xp themes changes exactly like expected. Windows XP Theme: single border everywhere (including common font dialog), flat buttons everywhere. When you switch to Windows Classic, all buttons and edits become 3d. You don't even need to go anywhere, the dialog that switches between the themes change the appearance right at your fingers. And also a test project created by Lazarus changes the appearance also.

Max Vlasov
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Ok, now I understand. This really sounds like a problem.

But unchecking the "Manifest" checkbox in the project properties cures this for me, at least in the dev PC. So that is what I will do.

This means if no manifest is created all works as it should. I don't know much about Windows theming, but this sounds like a problem with the 'standard manifest' (binding to the wrong Comctl32.dll version?) that Lazarus creates when the option is enabled. Perhaps it could help the windows developers if you could post the manifest file that Lazarus creates when you leave the option checked and therefor get the flat look. Does any windows Lazarus developer has any ideas as I could be totally wrong?

And I would not have asked if I had done the tests in UBUNTU and they showed the flatness because I am not used to how Ubuntu should look so I could not claim anything.

On Linux it works as expected. There are no manifest files in Linux. To test if theming works correctly in Linux just open any other GTK2 application and compare its look to the look of your application. You don't need prior knowledge of Linux to spot problems.

R.

When you say every app: no one here cares what any app produced by vendor xyz (xyz Microsoft) does. Because they may all do there own thing. (But yes, it would be strange if every single vendor did get it "wrong" ...)

So when you compare, open the notepad.exe that comes with every version of windows since the beginning of time.
Open the "replace dialog".

And that is what is defined as correct. nothing else but that.

And I just tested it myself.

My XP by default is flat.
=> Notepad =f lat / Lazarus = flat

Changed theme do "windows XP Classic"
=> Notepad = 3D / Lazarus = 3D / Project1.form1 = 3D

And I did not need to plat with any manifest or anything...

----
My test Pc is a one year old netbook, with XP as installed by vendor.

So if yours differs it must be some settings.
But if on your PC the look of Lazarus (try a recent 0.9.29) does indeed differ from the look of Notepad's replace dialog... then it would be interesting to know those exact settings (XP settings) needed to reproduce this. (As this could maybe be a bug)

Or make the opposite test => change intentionally to a flat scheme (test on notepad) and see what all the other apps do.

Martin

Reimar Grabowski wrote

Perhaps it could help the windows developers if you could post the manifest file that Lazarus creates when you leave the option checked and therefor get the flat look.

The manifest option has no effect here. Checked or unchecked, the Windows theme controls the application's looks. I cannot even locate a project1.manifest file.

Finally I understand what you are saying. :blush:

Yes, that replace dialog looks flat to me too....

My trigger was really the editboxes that I put on my Lazarus test program form because they looked so strange that I thought that I must have been doing somthing erroneous.

I have programmed in Delphi since Delphi 1 (on Win NT 3.51 at that time) and used every version up to Delphi 7.
But then Borland started messing up the IDE so I stopped upgrading (or really: stopped using the upgraded products) so I have been a Delphi7 person for the last 8-9 years (how long was it since Delphi7 came out?).
My dev machines are still XP too...

All forms on which I have put user input boxes as TEdit controls (and they are many) show sunken editboxes. So that is what I have been used to.

It IS possible in Delphi 7 to make the editboxes flat by changing the property from 3D, which is the default, but I never do that. So my D7 programs all have sunken editboxes. And on Lazarus thta property is not existing.

The tools I have been using also have this look....

But looking at Notepad (which I never use because as an editor I think it is no good) according to your instructions reveals the behaviour you have talked about...

So now I understand everything and I have to rethink the planned application design.

Thanks for the enlightenment!
And sorry for messing up the list with my confusion...

Delphi 7 has a component called XPManifest on the Win32 tab. If you place it on your form and run application you will see the flat edits too :)

In modern delphi versions this is enabled by default.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.