Hi

I have just witnessed how difficult installing Lazarus on Apple Mac can be, although I think the same applies to other operating systems, too. I made a program for my friend using Lazarus. He has a modern Mac but he mostly just browses Internet and writes e-mails and talks with Skype and doesn't care about the technical details. His English skills are poor. In essence he is not a geek.

We had a Skype line open and he tried to install Lazarus and FPC. I felt like trying to drive a car with eyes folded. He didn't know even the basic things like using a command line. We wasted like 3 hours fighting with the installation and it still didn't work! Both Lazarus and FPC were installed but always gave errors.
Later I realized the wiki page tells you to install "Apple Developer tools". I didn't realize it then.

Now a question for Mac people: should we proceed with the newly found instructions for Mac or should we use a Windows laptop which he can borrow? At least I have installed Lazarus on Windows and could help him. Are there some traps to look at when installing for Mac?

Now a more generic thought :
* Easy installation is more important than the core developers may understand. The typical claim is that if you are clever enough to program, you must be clever enough to install FPC and Lazarus somehow.
No! For example my friend is not interested in programming but still he needs Lazarus to build the program I made. I can't compile a binary for him because I don't have a Mac. Cross-compiling for Mac is beyond my skills.

Otherwise Lazarus is so easy to use for anyone. You add some controls to a form and click the green arrow, like in a media player, and the program compiles and runs. There is much complexity behind the scenes to make this happen.
Something should be done for the installation in general. It should be more automatic like for most other programs. Now a good Linux distro seems to be the easiest platform for installation. The package manager takes care of FPC dependency when installing Lazarus.

Me and Marcos Douglas have recently improved the installation wiki pages a little but that is not enough.

---

About the program I made:
My friend, instead of being a geek, is a talented construction worker. He has a pile of wood boards (the traditional meaning, sawed slices of wood), which he can measure in advance.
He must choose a set of them to make a desired length and then saw away the leftover piece.
My program takes the desired length and the lengths of available boards and chooses the best combination so that the leftover is minimal. This has been a problem always in construction work but there is no SW solution available, according to my friend.

If "n" is the number of available boards then there are 2 ^ n combinations to make, the same as "1" bits in a binary number of "n" digits. Boy, the current computers are fast. The data is only a short integer array which easily fits into processor cache. Then integer arithmetic and some bit shifting. For example 25 boards (2 ^ 25 = 33 554 432 combinations) is calculated in ~ 2 secs on a mini-laptop. I haven't even make any obvious optimizations yet.

Juha

You are completly right!

Me and Marcos Douglas have recently improved the installation wiki pages a little but that is not enough.

...and we will improved even more.

MD

So far, i'm not aware of anyone ever made cross-compiler for OSX. However, since all build-tools are open source, it should be possible.

Marcos Douglas wrote

> Me and Marcos Douglas have recently improved the installation wiki pages a > little but that is not enough. ...and we will improved even more.

Bit what wiki pages did you improve?

thanks,
dmitry

I did this part:
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Installing_Lazarus#Compiling.2Finstalling_FPC_and_Lazarus_from_Sources_of_SVN_.28Win32.29

...Juha did a lot more.

MD

dmitry boyarintsev kirjoitti tiistai, 27. hein?kuuta 2010 17:16:34:

So far, i'm not aware of anyone ever made cross-compiler for OSX. However, since all build-tools are open source, it should be possible.

I am not going to try that.
Instead I could help my friend's installation again after we both have collected energy for it. What do you say? Is there a chance we make it on Mac (I have no experience with it) or should we go with a Windows laptop?

Bit what wiki pages did you improve?

I improved "Getting Lazarus" page and Marcos improved "Installing Lazarus" page. They have overlapping information and should be re-organized.

Juha

Try install just FPC, not Lazarus, and use the shell to compile.

MD

Marcos Douglas kirjoitti tiistai, 27. hein?kuuta 2010 17:47:24:

Try install just FPC, not Lazarus, and use the shell to compile.

We tried the shell but FPC gave errors, maybe due to non-installed "Apple Developer tools".
Lazarus was this time the only thing that worked. :-)

Do you think my non-geek friend gets those developer tools installed?

Juha

You may try:
1. install the developer tools from dvd
2. install fpc dmg
3. download lazarus svn and run make

Of course this can be tricky to explain to someone who has no idea of terminal. Maybe you want to try teamviewer.

Mattias

The hardest part is to find the dvd, because normal users often forget where they put it.

Mattias

=) very funny... hehehe...

MD

Mattias Gaertner kirjoitti tiistai, 27. hein?kuuta 2010 17:59:01:

So it really requires a DVD? No download option?

I have been looking for a screen sharing application. There used to be such functionality in KDE but it stopped working long ago. I must look at this TeamViewer.

Juha

You can download them. I don't know the link.

I have been looking for a screen sharing application. There used to be such functionality in KDE but it stopped working long ago. I must look at this TeamViewer.

Mattias

Juha Manninen wrote

So it really requires a DVD? No download option?

DVD is easiest I think. You can try to download from apple homepage (http://developer.apple.com/technologies/xcode.html), but you'll have to register first. Also you need the right version. IIRC 3.1 for Leopard / Tiger and 3.2 for Snow Leopard.

After this you can install fpc-xcode-xxx.pkg, fpc-xxx.pkg (both inside the fpc-xxx.dmg), then the sources of fpc and last lazarus. I downloaded all form: http://www.hu.freepascal.org/lazarus/

regards
Ingo

When I installed Lazarus on osx few weeks ago I didin't know that I need to have dev tools installed but while installing FPC there was a message that I need dev tools so I just went to apple website, registered as developer and downloaded dev tools :) I think it is the problem with non developers that they do not read all the messages and in this way do not notice some things. But this is just my opinion ;)

Regards
?ilvinas

As a matter of interest, are you using some form of the Bin Packing or Knapsack algorithms to underpin your woodworking program?

Stu Cox
Project Management Technician
Southern Interior Region
Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure
342-447 Columbia St.,
Kamloops, BC V2C 2T3
p: 250-828-4320
f: 250-828-4229

?ilvinas Ledas kirjoitti tiistai, 27. hein?kuuta 2010 21:15:47:

My friend may have seen the messages but didn't understand them, his English is not good enough.

I realized that Lazarus IDE translations can be good for many people. We both had the Finnish version open and he understood what the menu items were and I could tell what to do in our language.

I personally use the English version because most instructions refer to English texts. I have felt almost ashamed because Seppo Suutarla has made nice translations and I don't use them much. Now they were really useful.

Juha

One more note about Installation:
Did you use the page http://wiki.freepascal.org/Installing_Lazarus_on_MacOS_X ?

I've also managed to install iDeneb 1.6 on the VirtualBox (3.1.6 and 3.2.6). Installing FPC/Lazarus in the virtualized OSX didn't make any problems.
The thread http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=207334 also notes about "patches" for VirtualBox. but they're required only if you install OSX 10.6, rather than OSX 10.5.

You can use virtualized OS to build the application.

thanks,
dmitry

2010/7/28 dmitry boyarintsev

One more note about Installation: Did you use the page http://wiki.freepascal.org/Installing_Lazarus_on_MacOS_X ?

Yes I guess the problem was still in Apple devel tools installation.

I've also managed to install iDeneb 1.6 on the VirtualBox (3.1.6 and

I am learning new every day. I didn't know of such iDeneb 1.6. Even their home page doesn't explain properly what it is. The download link has only an old version. There is a login window but no registration link. Is it something legal or not? Does it need the original OSX disks to install?
Questions...

Juha
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IDeneb to the best of my knowledge is a hacked version of MacOsX, so it runs on a wider selection of hardware => hence it is not legal

Also if you read the thread on the VirtualBox forum: MacOSX license only allows to run the OS on Apple hardware.

So even if you own an original MacOsX....
Unless you also have a computer from apple, and the VirtualBox happens to run on this computer...

You could install windows on your mac book, and then run osx inside virtual box

Martin
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Hi

Of course this can be tricky to explain to someone who has no idea of

terminal. Maybe you want to try teamviewer.

How come I didn't know about this TeamViewer before? Has it just recently become free for personal use?
It has an installation system which could work as an example when building a Lazarus installer. I will make another mail about it.

Me and my friend both installed TeamViewer. After ~ 30 seconds we were ready to try it and it worked well. Later we can use it for some "real action". My friend is in no way stupid. He is just a "normal" computer user and he likes when programs just work. I must say I like it, too.

Juha
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2010/7/27 Cox, Stuart TRAN:EX

As a matter of interest, are you using some form of the Bin Packing or Knapsack algorithms to underpin your woodworking program?

I think so yes. Only the knapsack weights must be <= a given value, the wood board lengths must be >= the value. Otherwise the same probmem. (Just found those from wikipedia.)

There is a Cardinal holding the number of possible combinations. It works as a bit mask when lengths are added. It means the max number of boards is 32 now but could be extended to 64 using QWord (or int64). The calculation time raises exponentially of course.

My code is no secret so I include it here as
Ohjelma.tar.gz<?ui=2&ik=fd78cd74df&view=att&th=12a1d2748f6002f3&attid=0.1&disp=attd>. The UI is in Finnish and is very primitive. I can translate it if someone is interested. Input numbers are on left, one per line, then the wanted value and then a Calculate-button.

I made few optimizations, 2 combinations are counted on one round and an exact match stops the search. This would be a PERFECT candidate for a multithreaded program. Not much data is transferred so the threads would not block each other.

Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure

Now I understand. The Knapsack problem and Bin Packing often comes up when doing transportation. :-)

Regards,
Juha
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Martin wrote

MacOSX license only allows to run the OS on Apple hardware. So even if you own an original MacOsX....

Please don't use the term "illegal" in such an inflationary manner. What is illegal is defined by the laws and by nothing else.

It does not matter what Apple would *like* to be allowed or disallowed in *their* parallel universe or what they do not "allow". Fortunately they haven't got legislative powers anywhere (yet) so they simply are not in a position to "allow" or "forbid" you anything.

Let me put the full context of my statement back:

Someone did ask " Is it something legal or not"
I did answer (in short): "to the best of my knowledge ..... it is not legal"
The statement (about legality) is a conclusion of what is the best of my knowledge => nowhere did I say that this is the ultimate, defined, agreed-by-all truth.

What is inflationary about this?

Well actually, the best of my knowledge goes a tiny bit further:
- using a software without license (and I doubt you get a license for IDeneb) is probably not legal anywhere on this world (yet there may be countries I do not know of)
- The terms of the license itself (binding you to Apple hardware) may not be binding in every country. Local laws my restrict, what a license can impose => therefore there may be (a considerate amount of) countries, in which you can run a legally obtained copy of OsX on any hardware you want (as long as it actually supports the hardware)

Still, all this, is to the best of my knowledge => If anyone else knows better, please update me.

No Apple doesn't have legislative powers, but the legislative powers of many countries have put laws in place against the usage of pirated software. (Again to the best of my knowledge).

Somehow the quoting messed up

Above: question from someone else

Below: My answer, which was accused of being inflationary

> IDeneb to the best of my knowledge is a hacked version of MacOsX, so > it runs on a wider selection of hardware => hence it is not legal

And my reaction to the accusation:

Martin wrote

> What is inflationary about this?

Maybe I overreacted a bit. I just recently had a heated discussion about a very similar topic and it seems many people in general (not necessarily you) tend to simply accept certain concepts as "normal" that would have been totally unacceptable only 10 years ago. This is also visible in the usage of the word "illegal". But this does not belong into this mailing list. Sorry for dragging this thread into the offtopic territory.

Martin wrote

- using a software without license (and I doubt you get a license for IDeneb) is probably not legal anywhere on this world

Ok, I looked at their website and they seem to distribute the whole OSX, I initially thought it was just a patch for an existing copy that I legally own. Distributing the patched version does indeed violate copyright laws. Whether *downloading* it (especially If I already own a valid license for OSX) violates the law is another question.

For the restriction of on which hardware to use it and where not (according to apple's wishes) if you did not explicitely *sign* a contract with Apple in which you bind yourself to their usage limitations you simply have bought a software license and the only restrictions that apply are the default laws about bought software licenses.

They could grant additional rights to you like the GPL and similar licenses do but they cannot take away rights that are already given to you by the law by simply stating it somewhere. They would require you to sign a contract with them to legally bind you to their restrictions.

The same applies to jailbreaking your iPhone and similar things. If it is yours (you bought it, its yours, not theirs anymore) you can do with it whatever you want.

On 31.07.2010 13:44, Martin wrote:

As far as German law is involved...

Downloads from not authorized sites are illegal, in detail for software downloads, for which exists nothing like "Privatkopie".

A download requires an according license, that also may restrict the use of the downloaded material. ?69d UrhG does not normally apply to downloads (kein Pr?zedenzfall bekannt).

They could grant additional rights to you like the GPL and similar licenses do but they cannot take away rights that are already given to you by the law by simply stating it somewhere. They would require you to sign a contract with them to legally bind you to their restrictions.

Contracts must not exist on paper, and they can be accepted without written consent ("konkludent").

The same applies to jailbreaking your iPhone and similar things. If it is yours (you bought it, its yours, not theirs anymore) you can do with it whatever you want.

The owner of a material thing (Eigent?mer) still must respect third party rights (UrhG...).

For strictly local private use the eleventh commandment applies: "Thou shallst not be found out" (Du sollst Dich nicht erwischen lassen ;-)

DoDi