Lately I have noticed that the Lazarus list has been (mis-)used for discussion not really related to Lazarus. The current parser thread is an example of that.

For those discussions a new mailing list has been created. You can subscribe here:
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus-other

I hope that discussion on the Lazarus mailing list remain more on topic.

With kind regards,
Vincent Snijders
Lazarus Mailing list admin

Fantastic, thanks for doing this.

Henry

For those discussions a new mailing list has been created. You can subscribe here: http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus-other

Good choice. Thanks for doing this.

Greetings
R.

Vincent Snijders wrote

For those discussions a new mailing list has been created. You can subscribe here:

Oh boy! We need *less* mailing lists, not *more*. Information will now get fragmented even more. :-(

BTW:
Did you request it be added to Gmane too?

Information will now get fragmented even more. And who subscribed to this list will now get what he expects and not tons of slightly (or not) related mails. I personally have never experienced gmail having a problem searching one more list.

Thanks from me, too!
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Oh boy! We need *less* mailing lists, not *more*. Information will now get fragmented even more. :-(

I am a clairvoyant. I knew that you would say this. The reason seems to be that some people are only subscribed to the Lazarus list and can not be bothered to subscribe to the FPC lists as well. So they need a Lazarus list to discuss the stuff that is off-topic here. And what you call fragmentation other people call order (yeah, we germans can be a little anal when it comes to this). But a good mail client can help you alot with coping with the millions of fpc/lazarus mailing lists. ;)

A very amused
R.

No, all the crap can go to the other list, so things will be _easier_ to find and _easier_ to read. This is great because I can subscribe to that list and ignore it (unless I'm bored).

2010/7/2 Graeme Geldenhuys :

On 2 July 2010 11:49, Vincent Snijders wrote: > For those discussions a new mailing list has been created. You can > subscribe here: Did you request it be added to Gmane too?

No, I did not add the other lists either. Feel free to request it to Gmane.

Vincent

Henry Vermaak wrote

No, all the crap can go to the other list, so things will be _easier_ to find and _easier_ to read. ?This is great because I can subscribe to that list and ignore it (unless I'm bored).

And you can't do the same with this list, by simply looking at the thread title? I do this all the time, if the title doesn't interest me, I mark the how thread as read, and it doesn't bother me more. Again, learn to use your email client.

Reimar Grabowski wrote

I am a clairvoyant. I knew that you would say this.

You win a gold star.

And what you call fragmentation other people call order (yeah, we germans can be a little anal when it comes to this).

Then while Vincent is at it, why not create a few more - to keep things organized. Here are some suggestions: [note the sarcasm].

lazarus-ide-support
lazarus-lcl-support
lazarus-lcl-devel
lazarus-ide-devel
lazarus-coreteam-only
lazarus-non-technical

If I'm bored enough, I am sure I can think of a few more. I can't imagine why anybody would want to complain about traffic in the FPC or Lazarus mailing lists. If you want to see traffic, subscribe to the Apache, Linux Kernel, Git etc mailing lists. They receive 150+ messages a day easily!

Vincent Snijders wrote

No, I did not add the other lists either. Feel free to request it to Gmane.

This is exactly my point - information gets lost or fragmented now. They will not be searchable by somebody that subscribes 3 months from now (default Mailman archives are not searchable).

PS:
Only list admins can request Gmane mirrors.

Why would you want to search the lazarus-other list? Any on topic, search-worthy information will be in the normal list.

2010/7/2 Graeme Geldenhuys :

I don't see that on http://gmane.org/subscribe.php. Unless you consider lazarus-other as "a social or non-technical list" and even then you could point to this thread to show you have aproval.

Vincent

Yes, I do this, too. The point is that I can do that unconditionally for the -other list, since I can create a filter. I can't create a filter for off topic conversations now, so they just clutter my lazarus tags.

Again, learn to use your email client.

How did you come to the conclusion that I don't know how to use my email client?

Henry

Henry Vermaak wrote

How did you come to the conclusion that I don't know how to use my email client?

Please move this discussion to lazarus-other, it is very off-topic here.

Haha, and you wonder why you wind people up the wrong way? Your arrogance will get you nowhere.

Strange argumentation. Why did you create a fpgui mailing list then? The topics could be discussed on the FPC list as well as it only works with FPC and about 20 mails a month don't clutter the list that much (your argumentation not mine).

<sarcasm on>
Why not ask the gcc, python, java, etc guys to join affords for one programming-compiling-interpreting list? All information about coding in one place.
One list to rule them all...
<sarcasm off>

Over and out
R.

p.s.: Where is my gold star?

Henry Vermaak schrieb: No, all the crap can go to the other list, so things will be _easier_ to find and _easier_ to read. This is great because I can subscribe to that list and ignore it (unless I'm bored).

I am with Graeme here. Having "..other" lists is of no reason to me. There is no strict distinction between the threats. Just making the subject line speaking would be enough. If I want to organize the mails I can do that in my email client as *I* like it. I don't want others doing this for me.

I am interested in everything that is related to FreePascal/Lazarus, even if a thread turns into a different direction. Who judges what is "off topic" and what not? I was already cut off from threads because I first did not even *know* that other Free Pascal lists exist. If everything goes into one list it's quite easy to delete mails I am not interested in but it's much harder to notice that other (Free Pascal related) lists exist.

J?rgen.

The lazarus other list could be seen as a courtesy. We could also just kill off topic threads without redirecting them to an alternative list.

And yes, by no means you are required to read and post lazarus-other. And by no means others must be forced to receive and scan off topic mails on the Lazarus list.

Vincent

Vincent Snijders wrote

And by no means others must be forced to receive and scan off topic mails on the Lazarus list.

And then comes the other problem.... What you might consider "off topic", I and others might consider "on topic". This is what J?rgen and I am talking about (including lost mails due to multiple lists and info fragmentation).

I have been through all of this with fpGUI and tiOPF. We had many areas of posting questions. Forums, IRC, private email, newsgroups, mailing lists, SourceForge Forums etc... Many newcomers asked the same questions over and over, because the information that are looking for was already covered, they just couldn't find it. Information fragmentation. THAT is why tiOPF and fpGUI now have one single port of call - *one mailing list*. That's it! If you don't like a message thread, don't read it! This will teach posters to also use correct and descriptive message subject lines, otherwise they don't get feedback.

Everybody is used to managing emails is some way or form. Nobody can fully stop spam messages. Just like you manage those, so you can manage other messages in a mailing list.

From a different perspective I could say "Manage your mailing lists!". I subscribe to about 20 different mailing lists. In some cases several of them all funnel into one local folder via my email client. I then review that folder for interesting stuff and ignore the threads I am not interested in. So handling multiple mailing lists is really not harder than managing one.

The real problem as I see it (bringing this back to the current situation) is that Adem failed to see that the parser thread really should have been moved to an FPC list from the Lazarus list. If that had been done a while back I believe everyone would have been happier.

But in the end, creating a new list for otherwise off-topic Lazarus discussions hurts no one and helps keep things organized so can we please stop bickering about this and move on?

And then comes the other problem.... What you might consider "off topic", I and others might consider "on topic". This is what J?rgen and I am talking about (including lost mails due to multiple lists and info fragmentation).

No Vincent considers "off topic" is "off topic", regardless what you or I or anyone else thinks. He is the admin after all. We can voice our opinions but thats it. Same on the FPC list. Jonas is doing a great job there keeping everything "on topic" an directing people to the correct lists. Easy guideline is if it is purely/mostly about Lazarus it belongs here, if it is about FPC it belongs there (the parser is part of FPC, you won't get the source from the Lazarus svn). And I know for sure that you know the difference between a user and a devel list. So what is so hard about seperating threads regarding Lazarus and FPC. They are different, even if closely related, projects. Don't act ignorant, we know you are a smart guy.

R.

Hi!

Doug Chamberlin wrote

The real problem as I see it (bringing this back to the current situation) is that Adem failed to see that the parser thread really should have been moved to an FPC list from the Lazarus list. If that had been done a while back I believe everyone would have been happier.

Just a little correction: Although Adem has participated much in the parser thread, it was Hans-Peter Diettrich who started it.

Regards,
Sven

Sven Barth wrote

Just a little correction: Although Adem has participated much in the parser thread, it was Hans-Peter Diettrich who started it.

Thanks, Sven!

This is not a democracy, we have a list moderator that steers these things and keeps the spam away.

This is not a democracy, we have a list moderator that steers these things and keeps the spam away.

I thought Free Pascal is open source. Such an arrogant attitude will not help to promote Free Pascal very much. An "go away if you don't like it" is not the spirit of enthusiastical Pascal programmers/developers/whatever. It seems that sooner or later a split of the (free) Pascal community will happen because not all are willing to subordinate under such an arrogant leadership.

The less people can spam on mailing lists, the more they can code. Since experience showed that code contribuitions is usually reciprocally proportional to the generated mailing list noise by a person, moderation is often a good thing.

The less people can spam on mailing lists, the more they can code. Since experience showed that code contribuitions is usually reciprocally proportional to the generated mailing list noise by a person, moderation is often a good thing.

The best example is Mattias, no noise, lots of code. :)

R.

The less people can spam on mailing lists, the more they can code. Since experience showed that code contribuitions is usually reciprocally proportional to the generated mailing list noise by a person

Hehe, this is one for my collection of quotations

J?rgen Hestermann wrote

> This is not a democracy, we have a list moderator that steers these things > and keeps the spam away. I thought Free Pascal is open source. Such an arrogant attitude will not

Open source doesn't mean democracy, where did you get that idea? Only projects with proper steering survive.

help to promote Free Pascal very much. An "go away if you don't like it" is not the spirit of enthusiastical Pascal programmers/developers/whatever. It

How do you know what the "spirit" of pascal programmers are? Are you just saying stuff because it sounds nice in your head?

seems that sooner or later a split of the (free) Pascal community will happen because not all are willing to subordinate under such an arrogant leadership.

How can I be arrogant if I'm stating a fact? Do you even know what the word means?

You are the arrogant one if you think people want to read your off topic trolling.

Florian Kl?mpfl wrote

The less people can spam on mailing lists, the more they can code.

And here I thought multi-tasking is a common practice these days. :-) Maybe not everybody is as good at it as I thought.

Henry Vermaak wrote

This is not a democracy, we have a list moderator that steers these things and keeps the spam away.

I'm all for a list moderator doing its job - with a bit of moderation obviously. Being a list moderator / core developer or having a bit of the "god complex syndrome" seems to be a very fine line to walk. Some take their "hobby" way to serious here, and treats the mailing lists like the Nazi Camps from way back. If everybody here had a bit more relaxed attitude and some leniency, it will take the respective open source projects a lot further. I guess its enough said on this topic - nobody listens anyway.

Some take their "hobby" way to serious here, and treats the mailing lists like the Nazi Camps from way back.

You should think before you write mails. This is a very serious advice. Comparing anything today to this time shows clearly that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about. I had a much better opinion of you before this mail. I am very disappointed.

You should read this very carefully before talking about this topic again (even if you just want to insult people): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

This is not your disrespect for the more then 6 million murdered people is very alarming. Use your brain before you write mails.

R.

2010/7/2 Reimar Grabowski :

Aha, the Godwin's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a "fpGUI is better than Lazarus" approaches 1.

Gustavo

This is just offensive nonsense (and Godwin's law). The moderation here is always courteous, well explained and above board (at least when I've experienced it). How will off topic trolling take a project further?

This is just offensive nonsense (and Godwin's law). The moderation here is always courteous, well explained and above board (at least when I've experienced it). How will off topic trolling take a project further?

Isn't it time now, to move *this* thread to the Lazarus-other list?

If technically feasable, I'd prefer automatic moving (redirection) of further contributions to such threads to that list, after an according announcement, instead of manually filtering of every single contribution to the original list.

DoDi

Gustavo Enrique Jimenez wrote

Aha, the Godwin's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the

Please quote where I mentioned fpGUI is better than Lazarus in this message thread. I have no idea what you read or where you read it, but it was clearly not something I wrote or said. Get your facts straight.

Reimar Grabowski wrote

This is not your disrespect for the more then 6 million murdered people is very alarming.

Next time read your emails with more care before accusing me of something. I did not insult any of the people affected in that tragic time, I simply compared how they were treated and everything they were not allowed to do - in relation to these mailing lists.

The "spirit of delphi" sure doesn't apply in the FPC and Lazarus projects. If you are not part of the core team you are an outsider and treated as such. Make one comment which the "Gods" frown upon, and your and banished to the *-other mailing lists (which nobody cares to read). So this is in a way insulting that person saying we don't want you here, so f***k off. Maybe that's just what I have to do - cut the ties once and for all and make everybody including myself happy.

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote

Make one comment which the "Gods" frown upon, and your and banished to the *-other mailing lists (which nobody cares to read).

There are problems which needs to be solved somehow. -other mailing lists is the solution. Maybe not the perfect.

The problem as I see it:

1. Lazarus developers and users want to be informed about lazarus problems and we need a place to discuss them.
2. Lazarus mail list was a place where we were able to discuss that problems but with time the subscribers list has grown together with the traffic of this list. So if previosly I recieved 7-15 mails per day now I get 15-30.
3. With the grown traffic it is imposible to spend reasonable amount of time for mails reading. The time for development has shrunk. So we need to choose whether we want to be involved more into the endless discussions (sorrry but often about nothing) or to be involved more into the development.
4. We can't just unsubscribe from the lazarus mail list since we still want to be in course of problems and want to be involved into discussions.
5. From the other side some ppl need a place for the hardly related to lazarus disputes. Since lazarus developers mostly don't participate at this disputes they (disputes) can be moved to another place - specially made for that disputes.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

I simply compared how they were treated and everything they were not allowed to do - in relation to these mailing lists.

You just don't get it, do you?
This comparision is exactly the disrespect I am talking about. This is a mailing list man, the only thing that can be harmed here is your ego (and it looks like it took some damage). Back than millions of people were tortured and killed, starved and used for experiments. That is not the same, get it? It is not even close. By making this comparison, you say that you are treated like one of the prisoners in the concentration camps, trivializing the fate of more than 6 million people. That is more than disrespectful to the victims. You sir, are an idiot.

R.
P.S.: If you want to insult someone (me included), just call him a nazi directly, no problem with that.

This is nothing about a single comment.

The thread had far more than 100 mails in it. Of which maybe between 10 and 20 had some actual content (more fpc than Lazarus related). Most of the rest of the mails were either repetition of this content, or even completly offtopic and with no usable , the begining of the thread was valid, it was about something that had actually been done. example code committed to thr svn.

then it went into the typical "going nowhere". people who are not themself going to write any code, are telling the developers *how* they should do there "work".
What for? What is expected from that?

There is a point in saying you would like a feature. the answers can be:
- a developer or contributor steps forward and implements it.
- it is disregarded, because even if contributed, maintenance would be to high
- you are told, you can contribute it.

those answers are final, accept them.
But no, each time 100 of mails are send to discuss a final decision.

If you are not happy with the answer that it will not be added, there is one way only:
- prove it wrong,
- stop sending mails
- sit down fork your own version of the code (after all its open source)
- implement it
- maintain it

then, once you shown what it really is like, you can ask again for it being merged.

Martin

On 3 July 2010 12:41, Reimar Grabowski wrote: > This comparision is exactly the disrespect I am talking about. Nope you still don't get what I mean...

I get exactly what you mean, but you don't get that you choose the wrong way to communicate it. Do something like this in public in germany and your career is over. More than one politician, writer or dignitary has learned this lesson the hard way. And they all said that they meant it like you did. But it only shows a serious lack of understanding and solicitousness. I feel sorry for you not understanding what you are saying (just like a little child), but it seems like frustration and anger produce the worst in a human. Sense and sensibility help alot when communicating with other people.

Hoping that you will understand this one day.
R.

@everyone else:
Sorry, for spamming the list with this little 'lighter-war' (it is not even a real flamewar, how lame :) ). But I think we cannot let such a statement stand uncommented on this list, as it casts a damning light on the users of this list. I am ashamed that 'one of us' posts such statements here. Best would be to remove this altogether and only keep the technical related (even if off-topic) mails.

There's Lazarus-other list.

PLEASE STOP mailing here!

2010/7/3, dmitry boyarintsev :

There's Lazarus-other list. PLEASE STOP mailing here!

I will moderate posts in this thread.

Vincent

Paul Ishenin wrote

The problem as I see it: 1. Lazarus developers and users want to be informed about lazarus problems and we need a place to discuss them.

Perhaps we need a lazarus-devel ML, which while not being invitation-only is /very/ strictly moderated. "How do I use Lazarus" questions are unacceptable, "I'm having trouble compiling on an unusual platform" are marginally tolerable.

Please excuse me if it turns out that there is such a thing which I, as a non-core developer, quite rightly don't know about :-)

There is a restricted lazarus-dev list for devels and package maintainers. It's mostly about implementation details.

If you want to talk about new lazarus features or ask how to use some lazarus thing, this is the right list.

Please excuse me if it turns out that there is such a thing which I, as a non-core developer, quite rightly don't know about :-)

Mattias