Hi All
I think Aleksa's content for an intro page is excellent. It does not need to be part of a CMS - can just be static pages, linking to documentation, wiki.

There is also the issue of downloading 'help' for Windows users: the html or the chm version, or whether to always look at online help. Also, I think that win7/vista users need a Microsoft download to run the chm version.

best wishes
Mike

_________________________________________________________________ Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20100201/092af2e2/attachment.html>

It does not need to be part of a CMS - can just be static pages, linking to documentation, wiki.

Yes, that's what I'm gonna do first. Just a good appearance with a collection of bunches of links and some appropriate semi-marketting words campaign. Once it's settled, the CMS could utilize the design.

You can also take a look at the Mercurial Project Page: http://mercurial.selenic.com/
Very clean, usable, nice to look at and to the point :)

Paulo Costa

I've made a very basic design, just to show off my page layout and content structure proposal. It's not yet about the true design (color, theme, etc) and the accessories (images, icons, etc).

Take a look at http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5716/lazwebnew020210.png

On this design, at the toppest is a link bar which contains primary content links, search box, and site language selection. Below it, it's an animated large header which will show some highlight features of FPC/Lazarus in rotation.
Below it, left pane is the primary show off contents with full of buzz words. On the right pane is the news snapshot.
Below it, it's a large footer which will show *all* available contents of the site. It could be some kind of sitemap as well. Below it, it's a tiny footer which contains some statistic and copyrighted stuffs.

Please share your opinions. Thanks.

Bee Jay wrote

Take a look at http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5716/lazwebnew020210.png

Still I think that we must use blue colors. IDE uses blue logo, blue icons. Everywhere the blue color dominates. Web site can't be brown but everything else blue. And I think that we are not able to change logo and all icons to brown in a reasonable time.

Everything else looks good for me.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

Here's the blue one: http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3214/lazwebnew020210blue.png

Everything else looks good for me.

Thanks. Let's hear what other would say.

This is looking good :)

Michael.

Looks good. Maybe we can add a tagline to the brownish header. 'Code once, compile everywhere' could be it maybe. It has to tell what Lazarus/fpc is as less as words possible.

Joost.

Personally, I like the other color scheme more than this one. But, I would rather go with color scheme which is more in spirit of whole project. (btw, how about having blue behind Lazarus less "intense" - maybe more like those at the top and bottom?)

As of contents and layout, I like it - it's simple, but full of useful information.

Looks good. Maybe we can add a tagline to the brownish header. 'Code once, compile everywhere' could be it maybe. It has to tell what Lazarus/fpc is as less as words possible.

Yes, as I asked previously, I need help about the wording. Somebody who has a bit knowledge about marketting may propose the sentences for the header, first page content, etc.

BTW, which one do you like? the brown one or the blue one? :)

Personally, I like the other color scheme more than this one. But, I would rather go with color scheme which is more in spirit of whole project. (btw, how about having blue behind Lazarus less "intense" - maybe more like those at the top and bottom?)

BTW, my post is about the content structure as shown on the footer section. It's not about the color scheme, design, etc. My designer hasn't yet done anything about the design. He's still collecting the idea of the website from me. That's why I post my email in this thread, it's about the content.

As of contents and layout, I like it - it's simple, but full of useful information.

Is there anything still missing from there?

Bee Jay wrote

Here's the blue one: http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3214/lazwebnew020210blue.png

Looks good, but isn't there a spelling mistake in the title on content. It seem so many people make this mistake.

The correct spelling is "Free Pascal" and *not* "FreePascal".

See website content:
http://www.freepascal.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Pascal

This mistake is even in the Mantis bug tracker, so don't feel bad. :-)

http://bugs.freepascal.org/set_project.php?project_id=6

PS:
Could somebody please fix the spelling of "Free Pascal" in Mantis? This has been bugging me for ages. :)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Well, it needs some work. But that can be done later. As far as I know there are also some grammatical errors in the current text. But some native English speaker can tell more about that.

About the tagline: the blue image has a good one, only it is too long. Maybe make it:

'THE (stronger then a) REAL (don't think that 'true' is grammatically correct) cross platform software development studio.' Without the rest.

And maybe the (base) license should be mentioned on the front page already.

BTW, which one do you like? the brown one or the blue one? :)

Brown. But that's personal, offcourse.

Joost.

Bee Jay wrote

Here's the blue one: http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3214/lazwebnew020210blue.png

Another spelling mistake in the bottom of the page. The spelling is "IDE" and not "I.D.E". :-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Joost van der Sluis wrote

Brown. But that's personal, offcourse.

No matter what we like. I believe it is possible to draw it perfect using blue colors. Again IDE icons and logos can't be in another color sheme as a web-site.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

Hi Bee Jay
I really like the page design!
I have a suggestion for the wording at the top of the page - see it below. You will see it is a bit more explanatory, perhaps more suitable for students. It also omits 'native', and I suggest this can be picked up in your 'cross-platform' stuff below. (Maybe also saying that native provides faster... etc best wishes
Mike

What is Lazarus?
----------------

Lazarus is an open-source zero-cost integrated development environment(IDE), based on the object-oriented Free Pascal compiler. Versions are available for most operating systems.

Lazarus lets you drag-and-drop GUI components onto windows, and debug programs interactively.

A major benefit is that code developed with Lazarus can run under many operating-systems. It is a cross-platform system.

-----------------

_________________________________________________________________ Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/pipermail/lazarus/attachments/20100202/b07d8e62/attachment-0001.html>

Bee Jay wrote

Is there anything still missing from there?

No the content is MUCH better than the current website. I like the "summary information" and the roadmap (links) at the bottom. On page for the user and they can easily branch off from there no more specific information. Easy to spot!

Regards,
- Graeme -

What happens if you click ok hover your mouse above the menu bar above?

For example, when you click on 'support(s)' what kind of page do you see? Of is if a menu which shows when you hover your mouse above it, so that 'Mailing lists','online forum', 'IRC' etc appears?

And the overview, that is a page which explains what fpc/lazarus is wich some screenshots, or something?

Joost.

I agree with Paul. I think that if the blue of the website was made a little softer, it would be better. Now it is very bright, which probably disturbs. The brown is softer. The blue used in the IDE is also softer.

Michael.

Bee Jay wrote

BTW, which one do you like? the brown one or the blue one? :)

Yes, the 'Code once, Compile everywhere' slogan is important. Just like the similar slogan used in Java.

As for color, I think the blue theme should be used. After all, FPC, Lazarus, Wiki and Mantis websites already use the blue theme. Also the Lazarus IDE uses a blue icon theme.

Regards,
- Graeme -

2010/2/2 Mike Parr :

It also omits 'native', and I suggest this can be picked up in your 'cross-platform' stuff below.

For any advanced user "native" is as important as "cross-platform". This tells one that FPC is not interpreter or VM based, but real native compiler.

For example, when you click on 'support(s)' what kind of page do you see? Of is if a menu which shows when you hover your mouse above it, so that 'Mailing lists','online forum', 'IRC' etc appears?

My approach is to be less JS as possible, more static HTML/CSS. It'll be easier to maintain. So, my approach is brief description static page instead of menus. For example, clicking the Support link would go to Support description page what contains explanation about where people would get support and the link to each. Example:

COMMUNITY SUPPORT

Here you may get support from our community in various form. Please select one you might think more suitable to you:

- Mailing List

- subscription instruction
- online archive
- etc

- Online forum

- get an account
- go to the forum
- etc

- IRC channel

- ...
- ...

And the overview, that is a page which explains what fpc/lazarus is wich some screenshots, or something?

Yes, Overview section is about summary of all the contents from definition to download, but in very brief text.

Perhaps i'm the only one missing a link to the Wiki pages?

It's my understanding that most of the current content for developers is placed on the wiki. So perhaps such a link should be placed in the top bar along with the downloads and support.

Kind regards,
Torsten Bonde Christiansen.

Perhaps i'm the only one missing a link to the Wiki pages?

It's available on the footer section.

It's my understanding that most of the current content for developers is placed on the wiki. So perhaps such a link should be placed in the top bar along with the downloads and support.

The top link section should contains anything that would be questioned on the first time visit. That's I didn't put wiki on it. Those links are there for some reasons:

- Home (should I need to explain this?) :D
- News (how is the recent progress of this thing?)
- Overview (what is this thing all about?)
- F.A.Q (ok, now I know what it is, could you tell me more?)
- Docs (ok, where's the detail of them?) the wiki link can also be put on the front/main page of Docs.
- Support (where would i get help if i face some problems?)
- Download (where should i get this thing?)
- About (who's behind this thing?)

I place the wiki link on Contribution section, not on Docs section, because I want to emphasize the "contribution" rather than the "document". ;)

Torsten Bonde Christiansen wrote

Perhaps i'm the only one missing a link to the Wiki pages?

It is there, at the bottom of the page under "Public Contributions", then the first link "Public wiki".

Regards,
- Graeme -

A design like this can even be served using current smf/tp site (till our own pascalbased is ready)
So keep on going thinking on design and contents

Marc

I really like the page design!

Thanks.

Thanks for the suggestion. The big header section isn't static. It will be slide-like presentation that will highlight key features of both FPC and Lazarus. The slide will be designed by my designer. Some features highlight in my thought are:

- native (more to Lazarus)
- cross platform (more to FPC)
- open source and license (both)
- library (FCL and LCL)

Any more *importants* keys feature of FPC and Lazarus that you think need to be on the header slide? TIA.

Bee Jay wrote

- native (more to Lazarus) - cross platform (more to FPC)

I would say vice-versa.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

A design like this can even be served using current smf/tp site (till our own pascalbased is ready)

Well, actually I'm thinking about Wordpress. I'm trying to collaborate both ideas, using available mostly php-based CMS or build custom CMS based on fpWeb. Also the contents can be obtained from current available resources.

So keep on going thinking on design and contents

Any ideas of yours? TIA.

The big header section isn't static. It will be slide-like presentation that will highlight key features of both FPC and Lazarus.

One more thing. The header section is available on the front page only. It wouldn't be available on the other deeper pages. The top link section and footer sitemap section would be available on *all* pages. So, the visitor won't get lost by the time they're going deeper into the content.

For now I won't discuss technology and want to keep existing engine for the reason that it is easy to maintain.

> So keep on going thinking on design and contents Any ideas of yours? TIA.

Generating missing content is not really my thing.

Marc

Ok, and how a user can 'see' where he is? And what we are looking at now is the first level navigation. What about the second and third?

(for example: I click on 'support' then on 'subscribe to mailinglist'. How can I see where I am? And how deep does this go? Do we need some navigation-setup for this?)

Joost

And another comment: the big 'LAZARUS' word should be there on all pages, I think. People need to know on which website they are. And I think that it is also desirable if the tagline is always visible. (But that can be small on other pages, offcourse.)

Joost.

There is a roadmap now too (it is called future), and is on average updated once every 5 years :-)

I would not use the term IDE, but RAD, and reserve IDE for the textmode IDE.

No, since lazarus is not a RAD. It is an IDE, allowing you to do RAD.

Michael.

Not exatly. Maybe the main page should point to the wiki.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

I place the wiki link on Contribution section, not on Docs section, because I want to emphasize the "contribution" rather than the "document". ;)

It means lots of contents must be moved from wiki to the new static pages, right?

Regards,
Juha Manninen

Well, then it rules out a joined page, since "IDE" without any qualification is ambiguous. "Lazarus IDE" then ?

Looks real good to me.
Maybe integrate the Lazarus Logo too?

Instead or in addition to the "text feature highlights" some icons or screenshots? So users can visually recognize the most important features?

Martin

Ok, and how a user can 'see' where he is? And what we are looking at now is the first level navigation. What about the second and third?

Good question. I haven't finish the deeper pages layout proposal. The content pages, will have a navigation bar below the shrinked header. The shrinked header will be static which will show the appropriate slide in regard with the content being displayed. For example, on FPC's Features page, the header will show the miniatur of FPC slide. I will show you my proposal tomorrow. Now, I need to back to my real job.

Instead or in addition to the "text feature highlights" some icons or screenshots? So users can visually recognize the most important features?

Yes, that's the plan. My designer needs some time to design the required images and icons. Once it's done, I will post it on the appearance thread. This thread is for the content discussion.

Hi,

Take a look at http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5716/lazwebnew020210.png Below it, it's an animated large header which will show some highlight features of FPC/Lazarus in rotation.

Please don't make the animations very heavy for CPU. There are many pages with animated ads that hog 70% of my CPU and I don't want to keep them open for long.
It's not a problem of course if you have a fast multi-core CPU.

Another wish:
I still would like a "Getting Started" or "Quick Start" link. That would be next step after installing Lazarus.
It would guide through a "Hello World" app in clear steps:
1. Open Lazarus.
2. Drag a button to the form.
3. Drag a label to the form.
4. Double click the button.
5. Type: Label1.Caption := 'Hello World';
6. Run the program.

The beginner will be impressed, especially if he hasn't used Delphi before. If he has used Delphi then he will still be impressed and wants to try more.

FPC section could have a similar link with "writeln('Hello World)".

What you say?

Regards,
Juha Manninen

Juha Manninen wrote

Please don't make the animations very heavy for CPU.

Yes, please don't. And please don't use cheesy animations like the running cheetah either - that is so 80's style! Very cheesy!!

There are many pages with animated ads that hog 70% of my CPU and I don't want to keep them open for long.

I'm not a fan of animated ads either. "New feature in IDE" wiki page is the exception because it visually promotes a new feature.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Juha Manninen wrote

Please don't make the animations very heavy for CPU. There are many pages with animated ads that hog 70% of my CPU and I don't want to keep them open for long.

It'd be a simple JS animation, not flash and nothing fancy.

Another wish: I still would like a "Getting Started" or "Quick Start" link. That would be next step after installing Lazarus.

This will be provided through the Learn section. It should provide enough information from how to get the installer, install it, and run the given "Hello World" example.

It'll be provided through Tutorial section. We already even have the video tutorial from other party. We only need to ask their permission to embed it in our website.

What you say?

The Learn and Tutorial section content should be more than enough for the new comers.

I would not use the term IDE, but RAD, and reserve IDE for the textmode IDE.

IMO RAD is a development model or qualifier ("RAD Studio"), while IDE is a concrete implementation (FP IDE, Lazarus IDE, Delphi IDE). In the given context it should be clear that the "Lazarus IDE" is meant.

DoDi

I have a mental problem with animations, and e.g. must scroll away the running cheetah, before I can concentrate on any content. It would be nice to allow for a non-animated version, too.

If somebody knows how to deactivate animations in Firefox, any hints are very welcome!

DoDi

I agree.

It can get confusing sometimes, especially when you read a message that says "I use Lazarus" and what they actually mean is they use the Lazarus IDE and write LCL based software.

I also use Lazarus, but I use the Lazarus IDE to create web, console and fpGUI applications - hardly ever an LCL application and definitely NOT the RAD development model, but rather a pure OOP + OPF model (which completely excludes DB-aware components).

So explaining somewhere what LCL is, should also be important, and that the Lazarus IDE is NOT only limited to LCL-based applications, but can be used for multitudes of project types.

Regards,
- Graeme -

When I read "animation", I thought maybe it meant a new frame every 5 seconds ? (because it says "rotation").

Changing the headline/picture every n seconds could be done in javascript, and therefore could be switched of....

My 2 cent
Martin

Use the
about:config
url.

filter on

image.animation_mode

Set value to 'none' (no quotes)

And that should be it.

Michael.

Really good work.

One suggestion: Whenever a "latest stable" link is placed, also include the date it was released. That is the next most important piece of info beyond the version number that people use to determine if they want to pursue it. It is a real pain to have to go looking for that detail.

Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote

If somebody knows how to deactivate animations in Firefox, any hints are very welcome!

Very easy.

In address URL type: about:config
Accept the "I'll be careful" message.

Search for "image.animation_mode" The default value is "normal" double click to bring up the editor window and change "normal" to "none".

No need to restart Firefox, the change is immediate. Gif animation is now disabled. :)

Michael Van Canneyt wrote

And that should be it.

Ah you beat me to it, I should have read all message before I replied. Sorry for the duplicate

agreed! i've been trying to think if creating a new acronym would go... IRADE (Integrated Rapid Application Development Environment) or maybe RAIDE (Rapid Application Integrated Development Environment) but then i thought as you and why not just RAD... the idea of a new acronym trend settings attributed to Laz/FPC would be a nice feather, though ;)

agreed... many of those are flash, shockwave, or even silverlight... animated gif, png, or jpg would be better and easier as long as they are not huge... maybe a simple picture rotating javascript that can easily fit in the head...

block flash and you'll block a huge number of them ;)

me? i use noscript and adblockplus and rarely see any ads of any kind anywhere... i open/allow only what is specifically needed for me to use a site ;)

Bingo! :-)

DoDi

The content pages, will have a navigation bar below the shrinked header. The shrinked header will be static which will show the appropriate slide in regard with the content being displayed.

Here's my proposal for content page layout: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/676/lazwebnewsubpage030210.png

The content area, between the link bar (toppest) and large footer bar, contains 2 section:
- static content on the left pane with static header on the top.
- dynamic content on the right pane with latest release info and download at the toppest, content navigation, and snapshot of some dynamic contents.

The snapshot contents can be some of the following sources:
- latest news update
- random user testimonial
- latest svn commit
- recent forum topic
- hottest forum topic
- recent submitted contributed code
- random screenshot
- recent change of wiki
- recent post of dev blog
... etc...

My purpose of using this approach is to combine fixed content (which would be very rarely changed) with changing/dynamic content (which would change frequently) in order not to bore regular visitors. The dynamic content might surprise some visitors about something they never knew/heard before.

This dynamic snapshot content, obviously, needs help from a simple application what would select and embed them on the pages.

Please share your idea and opinions.

Blue is only the colour of the IDE if one uses the default colour schemes of the OS. I happen to use a red/brown colour scheme in my KDE system and all the Lazarus widgets follow the red/brown scheme as well. It never occurred to me that there was any particular default colour scheme for Lazarus, and if I use it on a different computer with a different colour scheme, it follows the colour scheme of the host. I think the web-site could follow any scheme it likes - personally I get bored with the usual default blue!
Chris

Nice.

Few remarks:

The upper left bar 'Freepascal - the native cross platform compiler for object pastal'

I think that this part should be the same throughout the whole site. It tells people on which site they are, and on this site we shoudn't stress the difference between FreePascal and Lazarus too much. So I would let it show 'Lazarus - ....' just as on the home page.

The breathcrumb is fine, but I still don't know where I am, because there is no 'freepascal' section anywhere. Shoudn't it be 'compiler'? ie: Please use the same names in the menus, the sitemap below and the breathcrumbs.

And I would like to see where I am on the sitemap below, so maybe highlight 'The compiler' and 'Overview'?

And on the right, it shows 'in _this_ section'. Which section is that? Maybe better to make it something like 'Other topic in the compiler section'?

I like the svn-line. Especially when you mention the latest release date, people could think that nothing happens on the project since then. Showing the latest svn-commit (which is rarely older then 24 hours) is then a good idea.

Joost

Your work, even in drafts is good, and bodes well for a revamped web presence that has flair and simplicity as well as being succinct, informative and attractive for newcomers.

Much of the content in all the FP and Lazarus pages and wiki discloses its authorship by non-native English speakers by grammatical glitches, curious phrases and spellings, continental European idioms and so on. This does not bother me at all - though it is obvious to a native English speaker - in fact I rather like the collaborative, international feel such 'non-BBC' English often conveys. Indeed I am amazed at the remarkable grasp of English shown by Arabic, Russian, Indonesian, German etc. contributors. My own knowledge of languages (other than my mother tongue) is woeful by comparison.

However, if we are making a concerted effort to present a more 'professional' web image, perhaps it is time to impose a more consistent style on the more public and static pages, and agree on a few rules of style and spelling (British or American English? IDE or I.D.E.? and suchlike). What do people think?
I would be happy to offer some time to recast or rewrite material if that were deemed helpful.

Howard

Joost van der Sluis wrote

Nice.

Thanks.

I think that this part should be the same throughout the whole site.

No, the header will be changed according to what content being displayed on the page. If it's FPC specific, then the header will show FPC banner. If it's Lazarus specific, then the header will show Lazarus banner. If it's related to both, there will a banner that shows FPC and Lazarus combined.

It tells people on which site they are, and on this site we shoudn't stress the difference between FreePascal and Lazarus too much. So I would let it show 'Lazarus - ....' just as on the home page.

As I said in previous email, the large header on the main portal site will be an animated banner that will highlight some key features of both FPC and Lazarus. The changing animated header will also help for not making the page looks boring and dull.

The breathcrumb is fine, but I still don't know where I am, because there is no 'freepascal' section anywhere. Shoudn't it be 'compiler'? ie: Please use the same names in the menus, the sitemap below and the breathcrumbs.

Yes, I agree with you. I should be consistent with the naming, whether "compiler" or "FreePascal" and "IDE" or "Lazarus". I will fix it later.

And on the right, it shows 'in _this_ section'. Which section is that? Maybe better to make it something like 'Other topic in the compiler section'?

Section is page group according to the footer bar.

Yes, that's the main idea of the right pane. It should show the dynamic update of the projects.

Thank you. Yes, this whole proposal is still a draft and I know there are so many spell and gramatical errors in it. Well, my English isn't pretty good, obviously. :)
Once we agree with this layout proposal, we will work on the real content of *each* page. That time, your help will be very important.

And here's mine, with more 'elegant' touch to it. I use large fonts and white overall to make a neutral appearance --as I don't know Lazarus' "color"--. The page uses less text as possible on the front page, inspired by Mercurial, VLC, Wordpress website so that new visitors wont be overwhelmed by it.

Preview:
http://xs.to/image-FAED_4B6973FF.jpg
http://xs.to/image-63BB_4B6973FF.jpg

Source:
http://rapidshare.de/files/49097065/lazweb.zip.html

The image at the front page taken from a National Geography wallpaper featuring Cheetah. I cant find any quality image featuring a Cheetah, so I use that one. It might be copyright encumbered but feel free to use a substitute like screenshot of Lazarus in action, uncopyrighted Cheetah image, etc.

The texts are obviously mockup, I just want to show the design and to engage others in discussion to this design. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Dear friends:

I have received a Delphi7 Project to interact with an Access Database using ADO

I need to know if FP and Lazarus have this possibilities as in Delphi.

thanks in advance,

Ing. H?ctor F. Fiandor

Hi.

It looks elegant, yes. I like the cheetah, too.
New visitors won't be overwhelmed by information ... well ...

Sorry but I don't understand the fashion to put Latest News and Forum Postings into the main page. I know many pages do that. They occupy about a half of your page but usually carry no relevant information to a casual visitor.

Those who want to follow the news and forum postings can find them behind a link and make a bookmark and then read them daily if they want.

Most of the links in Bee Jay's page are useful and thus it serves better the visitors.
A good compromise would be if you remove news and forum posts from main page, add some important links that Bee Jay's page has and then add the Quick Start section I suggested earlier. It could even be a screen-cast of making a "Hello World" app right on the front page. It would not add textual context and would increase the page's "cool-factor". And it sure would help more than a random piece of news.

Regards,
Juha Manninen

Klenongan wrote

And here's mine, with more 'elegant' touch to it. I use large fonts and white overall to make a neutral appearance --as I don't know Lazarus' "color"--.

Yes, it look more elegant. It's a nice design, I must say.

The page uses less text as possible on the front page, inspired by Mercurial, VLC, Wordpress website so that new visitors wont be overwhelmed by it.

It depends on the target audience. For visitors who already know how to get informations from the website, my design indeed look a bit overwhelmed as I put almost *everything* important on the first page. But for visitors who come for the first time, the lack of information would make them less interested because they're pushed to digg around the site to get the information they need. I made a compromise by putting the important links on the footer bar so they don't scare nor bore regular visitors up front, but new visitors would find those informations only a scroll-down away. This is also good for the search engine scrawler.

We can't compare FPC/Lazarus with some thing that already very popular. It's a different case. Wordpress doesn't need to be too verbose because virtually anybody on the internet know Wordpress, at least ever heard of it once in a while. And their community is a lot bigger than ours.

I suggest we use our own images. I already asked help from someone on the other thread to help us on this.

The texts are obviously mockup, I just want to show the design and to engage others in discussion to this design. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Understood. Mine as well. My 2 mockups are intended to show the *layout* and content *structure* of the website that I proposed. They're not yet touched by any art works (images, colors, fonts, etc). They're just the skeleton of the design. I'm not yet discussing about the *real* content of it (words, sentences, etc), whether in the main page or in the deeper pages.

The things I want to emphasize on my proposal are uniqueness (so we're not accused as being plagiat anymore) and newcomers friendly (to guide them on their first venture with FPC/Lazarus). The main goal is FPC/ Lazarus gets adequate popularity and respect from other developers, both who comes from other pascal-variant languages (delphi, etc) and other languages (java, c, etc).

I took minimalist approach because most new visitors will be overwhelmed by things they have to read just to download the damned thing. There are many reason why open source projects nowadays put a big button on their front page just so anyone who visit the page for the first time (either by word of mouth, googling, etc) can get straight to it and try it the `product` right away.

What I meant wasn't being verbose or not, what I mean is to straight to the point, sure Wordpress is popular but so does Google. Since its early days Google took the minimalist approach to display just what it the visitor would expect from a search engine, that is a place where they can query the damned thing to get results, not some place where the can read the latest gossip about Jennifer Anniston or fun facts about gardening.

The download link, the three boxes ('What is it', 'Downloads', 'Developers'), and search form are within the "focus rectangle" of the screen, a term in GUI study about user focus and flow. I put it there in a concise manner but followed by a link so anyone, presumably the ones who comfortable with Lazarus, or people who want to know more, can follow it and get more information. The thing is, dumping everything on the front page is not, IMHO, a good thing as it, as I said earlier, overwhelmed the visitor both regular or first timer. I think this kind of approach is refreshing and actually works because I cant remember when the last time I have to read so many thing just to get what I want.

As for 'Forum Postings' I took it from Lazarus front page. Maybe it should be renamed to 'Recent Threads' or something similar, but I think it is a positive approach as I didn't put the entire thread but just the original poster and the title so it wont tax much space but at the same time encourage experienced Lazarus developers to help and/or take a look at the forum to answer any questions they found interesting.

> I suggest we use our own images. I already asked help from someone on the > other thread to help us on this.

I think these pictures are under CreativCommons
http://animalphotos.info/a/topics/animals/mammals/cheetahs/ http://www.piqs.de/schnelluebersicht/search/gepard/

Choose the picture you like it and trace it with Inkscape or corel draw then start to clean it up.

\hi,
Assuming you've researched a bit already, I guess it's what it seems: there's no support in FCL/packages, and I've seem no ADO library ported for FPC. Maybe you can start by taking an existing ADO library (I've seem some "betterADO" and the like) I see how much effort it'd to adapt to FCL/how much TDataset is missing, and I guess several people would be interested in helping.

This, considering you use a lot of DB-aware components, otherwise using plain ADO interfaces is pretty simple.
On a side note, is there any open source COM TypeLibrary "disassembler"? Is it legal that someone with Delphi generate the unit and distribute it?

Best regards,
Fl?vio

2010/2/3 H?ctor Fiandor Rosario :

Dear Fl?vio:

Thanks for your answer.

The problem is that some of my clients are using an Accounting System based in MicrosoftAccess and I manage some part of the Cost Accounting routines in Excel. I generate an Excel Sheet with the information to be introduced in the Accounting System. This task has been implemented in Delphi7 with a lot of work saved, but I would like to do with LCL and FP.

yours

Ing. H?ctor F. Fiandor

no preview there... both are the same image and look like a lottery thing calling out "upload and earn cash" :?

Looks very nice :-)

At a first glance I found these issues:

For sombody unfamiliar with Lazarus, I'd describe it like this: "Lazarus is a software development system..."

The second "What Is Lazarus?" should have been answered above, should read "More Information" or "Want to Know More?".

With "Developers" is unclear whether the development of Lazarus or of applications is meant. Asking for contributions IMO should not occur on the entry page.

I'd classify typical hits on the main page into:

- hey, what's this? (anybody)
- somebody told me about Lazarus, I want to know more about it
- using Lazarus: looking for resources (libs...), updates, docs, news, channels
- want to use Lazarus also on/for a different platform

Less frequent occasions, perhaps from the IDE menu:
- have a problem: need assistance, want to report an bug (Support)
- want to contribute: in general, specific bugfix (Contributions)

Searching for good images with an acceptable (free) license can take much time.

The texts are obviously mockup, I just want to show the design and to engage others in discussion to this design. Any feedback would be appreciated.

I hate "Best viewed" footers, they only indicate that the developer *knows* about possible (platform specific) problems, but does *not care* about such visitors.

DoDi

>> I suggest we use our own images. I already asked help from someone on the >> other thread to help us on this. I think these pictures are under CreativCommons http://animalphotos.info/a/topics/animals/mammals/cheetahs/

The "Three Cheetahs" image could reflect the multi-platform aspect of FPC/Lazarus.

DoDi

are there only three platforms supported? do 32bit vs 64bit count as separate platforms?

Is it just me or are there others that would agree that using real life animal pictures are just plain cheezy? (Well, the current Lazarus logos with cheetahs on pillars, accompanied by other floating Delphi-inspired symbols are infinitely worse, I must admit).

It seems a significant portion of open source projects pick some animal, almost as some type of "mascot", and that is cool. There isn't one example, however, that I can think of where such website looks like some page on National Geographic. From penguins to tortoises to bats, they all have a smallish and tastefully done emblem (nearly always cartoon-like) of their chosen animal, usually sitting non-intrusively in the top left corner of the site. I vote for simply using the "paw" (/images/splash_source/paw.png). It is a beautiful piece of artwork.

A related topic that's been bothering me: can we please discuss a name change for Lazarus as well? It's not like a name change will hurt the project at this stage, methinks...

Regards,

Paul.

I had the "National Geographic" impression too... I did like the proposal from Bee Jay (
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/676/lazwebnewsubpage030210.png )

But yes whatever icon/animal, IMHO it should be one of the ones already in use.

-1

I don't see why changing the name. Any Name except for "Pascal RAD-IDE" needs branding => users have to learn to associate it with a pascal RAD-IDE.

Martin

Paul wrote

A related topic that's been bothering me: can we please discuss a name change for Lazarus as well? It's not like a name change will hurt the project at this stage, methinks...

Have you noticed that Firefox now has an add-on called Lazarus?

Isn't that irritating?

Cheers
Lance

I need to tackle the same problem in a few months - converting old Access data to Firebird & PostgreSQL.

Michael van Canneyt told me that he has managed to talk to a Access database from Windows and Linux. I can't remember if he told be how though. Maybe through ODBC?

Michael?

Regards,
- Graeme -

Lance Collins wrote

Have you noticed that Firefox now has an add-on called Lazarus? Isn't that irritating?

If you goodle for Delphi you find more things than Delphi from Embarcadero.

Best regards,
Paul Ishenin.

Klenongan wrote

Preview: http://xs.to/image-FAED_4B6973FF.jpg

The big cheetah image makes me feel like I'm on a wildlife website and not a software tools website.

PS:
I had a good laugh at the year range in the copyright notice. Very optimistic that Lazarus will still be around. If it is, I wonder if Lazarus would have reached v1.0 by 2024? I guess not. :-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Martin wrote

I had the "National Geographic" impression too... I did like the proposal from Bee Jay ( http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/676/lazwebnewsubpage030210.png )

I don't like the gradient fill blue (old fashioned) and even less the idea of rotating banners in that position (annoying), but we are getting somewhere with these proposals...

Well, perhaps there are other people that are having the same experience as myself: When people ask me what I use for developing my software the answer is usually "Free Pascal & Lazarus". The response is /aways/ a puzzled look or a pause on the other end of the phone line, but my concern is that it doesn't even sound cool. A puzzled+mildly_impressed look would be so much better than a puzzled+what_is_this_guy_smoking? look. There are so many cool sounding programming languages out there, like "Python" or "Ruby on Rails" (check their website for a simple and to-the-point extremely newbie friendly home page:
http://rubyonrails.org/). When you say "Free Pascal & Lazarus", someone who knows a little about computer science will immediately think of an old teaching language that nobody uses (well, that's what they think) but the rest would have forgotten the word "Pascal" whilst digesting the word "Lazarus". "Hmmm, wasn't that some dude mentioned in the Bible?". The symbology of some project "raised from the dead" will be lost on most people, I think, and perhaps that is a good thing. Who cares if the project was once dead? What matters is that it is now an incredibly lively project! Besides, there might be many people in this community who objects to that part of "written history"...

Perhaps my problem is with the separation of the IDE and the language. I don't say "Object Pascal & Delphi". The word "Delphi" serves as a complete description to those who know what it is, while sounding mildly cool to those who don't have a clue. (In fact, it seems many people who have heard of both Delphi and VB think that the former is some kind of clone of the latter!). People who don't know much about Delphi, don't associate it with Pascal, they just have this vague idea that it is that VB-like thing that is a bit cooler and can create apps faster. Then also the word "Free". Aren't nearly all (cool) programming languages free? In English, as you know, it is unfortunate that free is used more in the beer context than in the speech context. It simply doesn't sound "cool" anymore. Furthermore, I don't think the current $modes supported by FPC can be called Pascal anymore. They are far removed Pascal-like dialects, a bit like Afrikaans that originated from Dutch, 300 years ago, and used to be called "Kitchen Dutch". That might as well have been "Free Dutch"... At least "Object Pascal" implies that the original Pascal language was heavily modified. "Free" implies no such thing.

Why this heavy emphasis on exterior appearances (ie. being "cool")? all the uber geeks might ask. It is important because most decision makers, clients and users are not geeks. These people need to feel good about the money they are spending. I believe a large part of Oracle's success can be attributed to the really cool name. (What an amazingly cool name for such a cr at p database, and don't tell me "Delphi" wasn't inspired by "Oracle"). Just look around you and see all the billboards with pretty people on them. This is the society we live in, like it or not. I don't, but if we want to be anti-establishment, why not just change the name to something really horrible and spell it with all small caps...... like git. (ouch)

Just my 2c :-)

Paul.

Agree. I like your minimalist approach. I even tried to achieve it by the design I proposed. But, the "minimalist" term is very much relative. In my thought, minimalist in the context of FPC/Lazarus website means less words, but not less informations. Yes, in the design I'd proposed there are too many texts, it's not very good. But, actually I didn't mean to be like that exactly. I want the content to be less words and more icons (as long as they're not annoying). Also take a look at the buttons on the header banner, the Download button is there so visitors could get it and try it right away. Please be patient until I finish visualizing my ideas. Off course, you or every one may agree and disagree, it's just a proposal. The people, especially the core developers, should decide which proposal will be approved.

We can't compare FPC/Lazarus with Google.com. We have a totally different product. What can we expect from a search engine UI, but simply an input box and a search button? If you really want to compare it with Google's product, then compare it with Google Code, instead of Google search. Take a look at Google Code website, you should know that it's not as minimalist as Google search.

We have the same goal but with different approach. The focus rectangle in my proposal is the header banner. My idea is to put sell points of FPC/Lazarus in one easy to spot place. That's why I will make it as animated header so I could place more things in one place.

The "everything on the front page" in my design is the footer bar. And the footer bar position, as the name imply, is on the bottom side of the page, using small fonts. So, it doesn't show right up front the nose of the visitors. You need to scroll down to see it. I don't think such approach would overwhelm visitors. CMIIW.

I also elaborate this need on my proposal. It's the dynamic content on the right pane of the subpages which could display many valuable information snapshots (recent forum post, recent svn commit, recent submitted code, screenshot, etc) randomly.

I don't like the gradient fill blue (old fashioned) and even less the idea of rotating banners in that position (annoying)

Please note that it's a work in progress, nothing is final. Please read my other emails regarding this.

That's correct. I used TODBConnnection.

Michael.

I don't like this 's design is much better.

That's because people do not read text on websites. And this website has a lot of text exlplaining .... things. Booorrriiinnnggg.. No-one reads that.

What you expect on a home-page is links, links, links and a few lines explaining things. Because every new-comer has a different reason to come to that page. Some like screenshots, and decide what this product is on those. They'll look at the page and search for the word 'screenshots'. Some others just want to download and try it. They look for 'download'. Some want to see a tutorial to see what it is, those will look for 'tutorial'... This page is just a lot of text.

What do I think when I look at the page with the cheetah. First I think: Cheetah, maybe some site about animals? Then underneath I see, What is Lazarus. Then I think, what does Lazarus have to do with animals? And the text below it doesn't solve my problem. I can read the FAQ, but reading an FAQ just to see what the page is about... no...

Then on the right, where I would expect an advertisement or something. I can read what Lazarus is. 'Lazarus is an IDE blahblab pascal gpl blah windows, mac, linux.' Too much text, telling me nothing.

Then the text below 'downloads'... It's happy/small talk. It does not add anything usefull. I know what a download is. And the developers area... same. There's one difference though. In this case it's important to know if it's about developers of Lazarus/fpc, or developers in general. Well, this is not told in the happy-talk text below it.

Further, search is not where you would expect it (on the top). The news section is only boring text.

And completely below I can read some jumbo-jumbo about css, ie6.. not imagine someone looking at the 'bee'-page. He'll think:

This website is about lazarus, a cross platform software studio. Then: Lazarus is an IDE, FreePascal a pascal compiler. They are really cross-platform. (Without reading the text at all) There are releases and I can download it or look at the features.

Oh, and there is recent news. (Not important what the news is, offcourse)

We'll maybe I should have a look ehm... tutorials. (screenshots/overview/FAQ...)

Much better.

Joost.

Well "Free Pascal" is the name of the compiler. The only Reason you have to mention it separately is because people do not know what Lazarus is. But a new name does not change that, peolpe still would not know.

The fact that people (even those not using it) know about Delphi comes from a lot of advertisement (branding) that was done for the name. Choose any name or keep "Lazarus". If you spent enough time and effort to make it known to the world, then it will have the same effect. If you don't have the time or don't make the effort, then no name will ever mean anyting to anyone, but the selected few who actually use it.

The symbology of some project "raised from the dead" will be lost on most people, I think, and perhaps that is a good thing.

You are right the original reason why tthe name was hoosen doesn't matter that much (it is still a nice little anecdote for insiders). But then why was Delphi called Delphi? For all I know this is ancient greek, but nothing to do with computers? And since Delphi is an ancient name, by choosing the ancient name "Lazarus" ourself, we actually have one more thing in common with Dalphi....

What is so cool about the name "oracle"? except that is is badly chosen for a database: A database should produce data in a predictable ways. An oracle isn't fact that Delphi and Oracle sound cool today only comes from the fact that every computer magazine praises them. If They would write the same amount of cool stuff about Lazarus, then the name would be equably cool.

In other words it is not/never the name that is cool. it is always the product and it's marketing that make the whole thing cool. We lack the marketing and that is the problem.

Martin

Is it just me or are there others that would agree that using real life animal pictures are just plain cheezy?

+1

I vote for simply using the "paw" (/images/splash_source/paw.png). It is a beautiful piece of artwork.

This image may conflict with Jack Wolfskin, who sues everbody using paws. At least it may cause trouble as soon as we want to create a T-shirt with paw(s) on it.

A related topic that's been bothering me: can we please discuss a name change for Lazarus as well? It's not like a name change will hurt the project at this stage, methinks...

IMO the RemObjects "Hydra" is both ancient Greek (as is Delphi), and also could have been used to express the multi-platform aspect of FPC/Lazarus. Unfortunately now it's reserved for other software.

Odysseus/Ulysses were another decent Greek hero, travelling through the whole world (of platforms).

DoDi

I had the "National Geographic" impression too... I did like the proposal from Bee Jay ( http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/676/lazwebnewsubpage030210.png )

Just another thing: I'd prefer the term "multi-platform", in favor of "cross-platform", which latter is frequently used for cross compilation (on one platform, but for a different one). The Delphi "X" will be cross-platform, since the IDE (and debugger) will run on Windows only, while the Lazarus IDE runs natively on every supported platform.

DoDi

I don't like this 's design is much better.

...

Well that's interesting, you don't know what Lazarus because you do not want to read the text, which right next to a big picture. A text below the name 'Lazarus' made bigger than the rest of the page, well placed to be seen first, not only that I took it straight from the Lazarus' "About Lazarus" dialog box. Thank you for your critics, but I'm lost at words.

This page is just a lot of text.

A text is rendered faster than image. Add to the fact that my ZIP file is only 70K~, that includes everything to image should tell you something about my preference to use bandwidth effectively.

Further, search is not where you would expect it (on the top). The news section is only boring text.

...

Oh, and there is recent news. (Not important what the news is, offcourse)

Bee has recent news and I have 'Latest news'. I might be wrong, but I get the feeling you slated them both, is there any problem with you reading text? I know it sounds provocative, and I sounds like attacking you personally (which I am not) but really, what is it with you and a little bit reading?

A placeholder mind you, I don't know what `technically-correct` to describe "a Lazarus download" `concept` and yes I admit the "Developers" can be interpreted into two things, my fault. I digress the overused 'Lorem Ipsum Dolor Sit Amet ..' text. Of course, if the actual web-admin would like to change it, then be it.

It would be much easier for me to learn if you post, at least, a mock-up. Not necessarily in HTML but a picture like bee's would be good. All you saying is something that should be good, but the details like placements, colors, overall design aren't there. Without reading the text would mean more icons, visual cue, which is the luxury we don't have because I assume there is no budget to order customized icons from a professional artist; other than that then we're stuck with the overused Tango icons.

I failed to imagine what exactly that you want, please elaborate.

That's because people do not read text on websites. And this website has a lot of text exlplaining .... things. Booorrriiinnnggg.. No-one reads that.

You are creating YOUR description of every Lazarus website visitors. I read texts, I read books, novels (and whatever spurs my curiosity), given I have a certain threshold but I'll read text if it is not too long. I would also say that every Lazarus visitors are just like me, they read texts if they are not too long, but that is MY description of Lazarus website visitors not the factual description because nobody can tell anybody about that without research.

We'll maybe I should have a look ehm... tutorials. (screenshots/overview/FAQ...)

As for proposals, of course it would be better to leave Tutorials to Wiki, much suited for the purpose. As for screenshot page, hmm.. I might add that one, thank you.

And completely below I can read some jumbo-jumbo about css, ie6.. not --^ and Hans-Peter Diettrich's : I hate "Best viewed" footers, they only indicate that the developer *knows* about possible (platform specific) problems, but does > *not care* about such visitors.

For "Best viewed with .. " comment, it is not fair to expect the designer to come up with a design that will be rendered exactly on every web browsers out there, not to mention the lack of information of the web browsers (and its version) used by visitors of a website. If you given the task to design a website the best bet is to adhere to standards closely, that's why I put the "Best viewed with .." part. It function as a disclaimer that the designer uses standards, and if your web-browser doesn't support standard you should expect lesser `experience` --whatever that is.

@ Graeme

Its a concept, any non-copyrighted replacement image would be fine. Given a nice image and imagemagick commandline you can replace it in 1 minute.

Again, the texts are placeholder, that includes the footer too. I'm too tired to laugh when designing that. :D

@ waldo kitty

no preview there... both are the same image and look like a lottery thing calling out "upload and earn cash" :?

Strange, I can see the images just fine. Maybe something wrong with your proxy, or network settings? The xs.to is one of my bookmarked image host, I choose it because i can call it out of my head, being just 'xs.to'. No.. I'm not trying to profit from the link.

The one I'm working so far, with better Downloads page: http://rapidshare.de/files/49103284/lazweb.zip.html

I'll work on the "Screenshot Page" concept, but it is a little bit sketchy because I don't know what is the best structure. Do you guys want it to be structured by revisions, version, widgetset, or OS?

Hello Lazarus-List,

Thursday, February 4, 2010, 5:15:25 PM, you wrote:

K> Strange, I can see the images just fine. Maybe something wrong with K> your proxy, or network settings? The xs.to is one of my bookmarked K> image host, I choose it because i can call it out of my head, being K> just 'xs.to'. No.. I'm not trying to profit from the link.

xs.to is not accesible from some providers, we are moved always to a "redirect" image (the lottery one). I had used an american proxy in order to view it.

Yes. Most people do.

I know it sounds provocative, and I sounds like attacking you personally (which I am not) but really, what is it with you and a little bit reading?

Most people don't read text on websites. Only if they are really interested in it. That's not the case for first-time users. And advanced users are not interested in the text on the home-page, because they already know.

This shows the problem of designing a page without the content in mind. Now the administrator of the webpage has to think up some text for those text-boxes. But there is no meaningfull text. So get rid of it. No text. Especially if it tells me nothing I don't already know. (for example: what a download is)

I don't want to make any design. I only tell what imho the problem is with yours. It has too much text, too little links.

This is just what usability and user tests on websites showed. People come to a website with a certain goal. That can be anything: look for screenshots, a tutorial, download... You have them provide what they are looking for as quick as possible.

Look for the book by Steve Krug 'Don't make me think' for all the basics...

I failed to imagine what exactly that you want, please elaborate.

Get rid off all text which doesn't add anything. And make no sentences longer then about 15 words.

And add the links on the bottom just like in Bee's design.

Joost

achieve by your design. We want the text on the main page to be as consice as possible and easy to remember, so it would grab the focus of the visitors and give them a quick impression of the website. Some kind of marketting buzz words. Further text for the detail explanation can be put on the deeper pages.

the text would mean more icons, visual cue, which is the luxury we don't have because I assume there is no budget to order customized icons from a professional artist; other than that then we're stuck with the overused Tango icons.

If you follow this whole thread from the beginning, you should know that I'm working on this with the help of my web designer colleague. I hope he would be able to make the required images, icons, etc. for the new website.

As for proposals, of course it would be better to leave Tutorials to Wiki, much suited for the purpose. As for screenshot page, hmm.. I might add that one, thank you.

Good. Keep improving your proposal and ideas. Please keep in mind, it's not about your proposal versus mine, we're not doing web design contest here. We want to give FPC and Lazarus a better website so it would attract new comers, more visitors, and finally more contributors for the project. I don't mind if all people here don't like my proposal as long as the choosen proposal would be able to achieve the goal. Let's work together on this.

I always liked them, and thought they were a fresh break from the cartoony open source logos., or even worse corporate abstracts.

It seems a significant portion of open source projects pick some animal, almost as some type of "mascot", and that is cool

How can something that everybody is doing be cool!??!

A related topic that's been bothering me: can we please discuss a name change for Lazarus as well? It's not like a name change will hurt the project at this stage, methinks...

Don't see the point. Am interested in suggestions though.

I always wondered what a snake has to do with a programming language.(*) A gemstone could at least be associated with quality

(*) there probably is a good blurb about the name python. There is also one
about Lazarus. When it is not instinctive however, it doesn't matter.

So yes to Ruby, no to Python. What about Emerald? It is more precious than Ruby, provides a nice hook for a colorscheme, and the Brazilian contributors will be pleased :-)

(or am I the only one that associates emeralds with Brazil?)

Keep in mind that for Africans this is all more run of the mill. For non-Africans, it breathes "wild" and "out of the ordinary" :-)

Well, I like it. Animals are not common as mascots for commercial software and to me, personally, shows that you're dealing with a community (warm, friendly) instead of a corporate entity (cold, greedy). I don't know if it all started with the Gnu or Tux and everyone else just jumped onto the idea, but it clearly resonates with the open source culture on some level. Have a look at this huge collection of open source mascots: http://chl.be/mascots/

Just because something is common for some culture doesn't make it un-cool. I think trying to be different just for the sake of being different is un-cool. Nobody says you have to go and copy someone (like the Delphi pillar, etc, has been copied in the Lazarus splash...)

It is a real pity about Jack Wolfskin, but I'd still go for the paw and refrain from making T-Shirts with it (or at least have the T-Shirts made by someone who cannot be sued :-) ). A big cat's paw print is the ultimate emblem of stealth and speed IMHO, since you never see the bugger ;-)

Paul.

If you do see it up close, it may well be the last thing you'll ever see :)

Translated to Lazarus it means you'll never use something else again ;-)

Michael.

i don't use a proxy at all and there's nothing wrong with my network settings... they've been the same for years ;)

i was just passing the info on...

:lol: emeralds belong in Oz... as in "the Emerald City" that Dorthy, Toto, Tin Man, Cowardly Lion, and Scarecrow went to visit after Dorthy killed the wicked witch :P

[IANAL] there is also the design of the paw print and how long it has been used without being challenged... as long as the one cannot be confused with the other, there is generally no problem... [/IANAL]

We already have an animal. Just not a cartoony one.

I don't know if it all started with the Gnu or Tux and everyone else just jumped onto the idea, but it clearly resonates with the open source culture on some level. Have a look at this huge collection of open source mascots: http://chl.be/mascots/

In recent times, a lot of larger projects have moved away from this to more corporate logos (e.g. the BSDs), and only entertain the mascot on the side

Just because something is common for some culture doesn't make it un-cool. I think trying to be different just for the sake of being different is un-cool. Nobody says you have to go and copy someone (like the Delphi pillar, etc, has been copied in the Lazarus splash...)

See the above gallery. Blending in pedigree or taking bits of pieces of sister projects is perfectly alright. And that is exactly what Lazarus does.

I think in the case we really should change, something potentially encumbered is not an option.

I guess it depends on how far you want to take this free-as-in-speech thing then? Personally I'd rather be defiant when such common sense personal liberties are attacked (such as not being able to use a paw print design, which imo cannot be registered as a trademark since it is not original art). These days it seems *everything* is /potentially/ encumbered, and Jack Wolfskin (who I've never heard of before) is proof of that. (The only difference is whether you know about it or not). I can understand that there will be trouble if a European company makes 100,000 FPC T-shirts and sells them very publicly, but otherwise...? Anyhow, I'd get a Chinese company to do that. It seems they have more freedom than people/companies in some western countries these days. Or... I'll set up something here in Africa where we have paw prints all over the place ;-)

Paul.

Support it, but don't try to be a martyr.

These days it seems *everything* is /potentially/ encumbered, and Jack Wolfskin (who I've never heard of before) is proof of that.

There is a difference in knowing such issues up front in such an early stage.

You have to suffer to be a martyr... I'm suffering because you don't want to use the paw ;-)

Well, so far I'm pretty sure the whole issue is related to clothing only. (And even with clothing, it would be an issue of branding, not prints on t-shirts that do not signify a brand). So we don't know anything about this issue and certainly not i.t.o. a logo for a website...