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new adventure

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Baeseman, Cliff

You must loving searching for my name on the web..

Cliff

Yes everyone already knows about this.

Earlier message 20 lines
-----Original Message----- From: Sergio A. Kessler Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 7:10 PM To: Lazarus mailing list Subject: [lazarus] new adventure the new adventure of Cliff ... http://lwn.net/1999/1216/a/pbd.html wonder what it may be doing next week ... Sergio _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus

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Marc Weustink
to Curtis White: I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the…
you wrote
I finally cycled my compiler again today for the first time in about three weeks. For some reason, I cannot compile the LCL now. I am wondering if

anyone

knows what I might be missing?

I guess a piece of new code was committed to early (TWinControl.CreateSubClass). I commented it out, so I could check the stuff I wanted to commit.

New changes:
Rearranged some events to get a LM_SIZE, LM_MOVE and LM_WINDOWPOSCHANGED Initialized the TextMetricstruct to zeros to clear unset values Get mwEdit to show more than one line
Fixed some errors in earlier commits

Marc

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Alexandre Grenier
to Baeseman, Cliff: No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would not be right…
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Let me think about this one. Geeeee. Do you think just maybe we will say PASCAL!

Yeah.. I agree pascal is very structured, compiles fast.. etc.. But I also think it has some issues... far from beign insanely flexible like perl.
But perl is weird in some ways.

Hmmm.

What about python? I've never seen that...

But I think it's quasi impossible that one of the languages out there is an "overall best possible".. you understand? Pascal is simply Overall best.. but I bet it could be improved.

Alex

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Unknown author

Could I ask you to just type simple ASCII texte:

Sea what your message look like in my Email Reader:

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Vital Tremblay

you wrote 40 lines
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> &nbsp; <p>Kevin Berry wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have one other thing to add... <p>IMHO interfaces appear to be a cleaner solution than <br>C++'s multiple inheritence.&nbsp; Multiple inheritence <br>makes the compiler much more complex (and therefore <br>less efficient) doesn't it...&nbsp;&nbsp; Object Pascal is a <br>nice "clean" language that promotes a RAD type of <br>development environment without sacrificing power...</blockquote> NO, NO, NO and NO, multiple inheritance can be <br>used to implement interfaces, but interfaces give you <br>only a subset of the power and advantages of multiple <br>inheritance, I like power, also C++, compilers produce <br>much faster code than pretty much anything, I don't call <br>that inefficient, I care far more about runtime efficiency <br>than Compile time. although C/C++ does all right there too. <br>As for Rad I have news for you Borland make a twin to <br>Delphi called C++Builder which has all the Rad of Delphi, <br>the VCL, roll your own components, the lot, in fact it has <br>slightly more in that it'll compile Delphi code (Object Pascal) <br>as well as C++. <br>Still I like Pascal I'm glad it's still thriving unlike some languages <br>I could name, It deserves to live. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <p>--- Curtis White &lt;> wrote: <br>> I also love Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is <br>> sometimes too wordy and <br>> currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple <br>> inheritance (Java doesn't <br>> officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be <br>> done with interfaces). <br>> <br>> <br>> Curtis <br>_________________________________________________________________ <br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To unsubscribe: mail <br>> with <br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
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href="http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus">http://www.miraclec.com /list_archives/lazarus</a>

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Kevin Berry

I have one other thing to add...

IMHO interfaces appear to be a cleaner solution than C++'s multiple inheritence. Multiple inheritence
makes the compiler much more complex (and therefore less efficient) doesn't it... Object Pascal is a nice "clean" language that promotes a RAD type of
development environment without sacrificing power...

--- Curtis White wrote 9 lines
I also love Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is sometimes too wordy and currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple inheritance (Java doesn't officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be done with interfaces). Curtis

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to Kevin Berry

�
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> �
Kevin Berry wrote:
I have one other thing to add...
IMHO interfaces appear to be a cleaner solution than C++'s multiple inheritence.� Multiple inheritence makes the compiler much more complex (and therefore less efficient) doesn't it...�� Object Pascal is a nice "clean" language that promotes a RAD type of development environment without sacrificing power...NO, NO, NO and NO, multiple inheritance can be used to implement interfaces, but interfaces give you only a subset of the power and advantages of multiple inheritance, I like power, also C++, compilers produce much faster code than pretty much anything, I don't call that inefficient, I care far more about runtime efficiency than Compile time. although C/C++ does all right there too. As for Rad I have news for you Borland make a twin to Delphi called C++Builder which has all the Rad of Delphi, the VCL, roll your own components, the lot, in fact it has slightly more in that it'll compile Delphi code (Object Pascal) as well as C++. Still I like Pascal I'm glad it's still thriving unlike some languages I could name, It deserves to live.
C++Builder in mutch more slower
than delphi,��
--- Curtis White wrote: > I also love
Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is > sometimes too wordy and > currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple > inheritance (Java doesn't > officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be

done with interfaces). > > > Curtis

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<A

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������������������������������������������ Grisly��� . oo ����������������������������������������������������� `oO Francis Smit � Knowledge By Design/OzTel Suite 201, 683 George st Sydney 2000 NSW Tel: +61 2 9212 1399 Fax: +61 2 9212 5727 ___________________________________ m$: How can we stuff you up today? � _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus

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Florian Klaempfl
to Curtis White: I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the…
Show quoted text 6 lines
I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the ultimate language. It is the best language I have ever developed. It is very close to C++ symantics but you don't have to deal with pointers and memory management (and garbage collection). But it is so slow right now that it really isn't feasible for many applications.

That's the drawback of automatic memory management, garbage collection etc. For extra comfort you've always to pay with memory consumtation or speed: Just compare shortstrings and ansistrings of FPC/Delphi: ansistrings can be as long as you've memory (ok, 2GB is the limit), they are automatically allocated/deallocated etc but in average they are much slower than shortstrings.

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Kevin Berry

Ditto... although I do wish there was a short-cut for "begin" and "end". I like C++ and Java's "{" and "}" for "begin" and "end" but hate most other things about the syntax (like == instead of = and = instead of := - how confusing!!).

Cheers,
Kevin.

--- Samuel Liddicott wrote 7 lines
So can pascal implement it with interfaces. Personally I like a slightly more "wordy" language than C, it means I just have to read the source rather than decode it... Sam

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Samuel Liddicott
to Curtis White: I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the…
Show quoted text 10 lines
-----Original Message----- From: Behalf Of Curtis White Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 04:24 AM To: Subject: Re: [lazarus] new adventure I also love Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is sometimes too wordy and currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple inheritance (Java doesn't officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be done with interfaces).

So can pascal implement it with interfaces.
Personally I like a slightly more "wordy" language than C, it means I just have to read the source rather than decode it...

Sam

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Chris Storah

You could always say VB...or Sinclair ZX80 BASIC :)

Seriously...

single most powerfull

Depends on what you need it for...try writing Device drivers in M (Mumps)

well designed

Doesn't mean it will be useful

my penny's worth... since I don't have a cent ;)
For cross-compilation, it may be an idea to produce something that compiles to a pseudo-code which can then be run by an interpreter/compiler on any system ... no more .EXE or .RUN files or #defines, just a format that can be run on any system. Ah, then again that is what P-code is on UCSD Pascal (not sure if it has come away from that nowadays).

I don't think a single language can give everything that people want, because when it comes down to it, it is personal taste. I use a variety of languages depending on my needs C++ at work, Pascal or C++/C at home, Mumps when I have to support my old code at work, Assembler when I need to write embedded software, HTML for web based coding ... I could go on, but you get the idea.

Never used Python - I assumed it was a script language! May give it a try sometime depending on whether it is of use to me.

What would you guys rate as the single most powerfull/well designed

language?
Ada - I hate it, but have to admit it is well designed and powerfull : of course it is of no use to me because someone would have to support my code :)

Chris

P.S. I still can't get Lazarus to compile on Win32, but that's another thread

Earlier message 49 lines
-----Original Message----- From: Alexandre Grenier Sent: 17 December 1999 06:31 To: Subject: Re: [lazarus] new adventure ----- Original Message ----- From: Baeseman, Cliff To: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:45 PM Subject: RE: [lazarus] new adventure > No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would > not be right for > me to hold up that now would it. > > I just build a new development box and loaded 6.1 on it. I am now busy > getting things > back in order before jumping back in. I am still working python builder in > the mean time also. I am not a language fanatic but I enjoy writing in just > about every thing from Python to assembler. I do not do well when tied to a > project for a long time. I have to jump back and forth between the two to > help keep up my interest. > > Cliff Maybe we should develop a new language that simply kicks ass ;o) I am learning perl right now.. and wow.. that language is incredible! So flexible... I bet a think tank of thinkers that know a lot of languages could develop the smartest most flexible, powerfull, efficient language ever.. taking in consideration the needs for shell-like scripts, CLI programs, CGI, DataBase, RAD.... etc =o) What would you guys rate as the single most powerfull/well designed language? Alex _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus

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Curtis White
to Alexandre Grenier: Yeah.. I agree pascal is very structured, compiles fast.. etc.. But I also think it has…
On 17-Dec-99 Alexandre Grenier wrote 5 lines
But I think it's quasi impossible that one of the languages out there is an "overall best possible".. you understand? Pascal is simply Overall best.. but I bet it could be improved.

I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the ultimate language. It is the best language I have ever developed. It is very close to C++ symantics but you don't have to deal with pointers and memory management (and garbage collection). But it is so slow right now that it really isn't feasible for many applications.

I also love Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is sometimes too wordy and currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple inheritance (Java doesn't officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be done with interfaces).

Curtis

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Baeseman, Cliff

No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would not be right for
me to hold up that now would it.

I just build a new development box and loaded 6.1 on it. I am now busy getting things
back in order before jumping back in. I am still working python builder in the mean time also. I am not a language fanatic but I enjoy writing in just about every thing from Python to assembler. I do not do well when tied to a project for a long time. I have to jump back and forth between the two to help keep up my interest.

Cliff

Earlier message 28 lines
-----Original Message----- From: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 3:09 PM To: '' Subject: RE: [lazarus] new adventure On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Baeseman, Cliff wrote: > You must loving searching for my name on the web.. > > Cliff > > Yes everyone already knows about this. The more important question here of course is: Are you dropping Lazarus or not ? We can use all manpower we can get. Michael. _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus

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Cliff Baeseman
to Baeseman, Cliff: No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would not be right…

Well I have been doing a bunch of python the last 4-5 weeks and I am very impressed with that. I often thought about learning pearl but as far as I heard it does not do classes. That being the case I will not invest my time in it. Now don't get me wrong I hear pearl is great for text processing but the lack of oop will turn me away in a moment. Java is a eligant language but the performance just plain blows.

Reasons for liking python.
1. capable of multiple inheritance
2. code is not free form (if you do not indent it will not run) this means I can read almost anyones code and make perfect sense of it.
3. dynamic allocation of everything.
4. integrates / extends easily with C or C++ libraries.
5. very short notation
6. runs on just about everything
7. it is free
8. damn easy to learn (I can teach a tard python)
9. plenty of widget implementations for GUI stuff

drawback
t's interpreted so it is slower than a compiled language plus you need python to run it.

I do like object pascal also but it does tend to be wordy with all the begin and end stuff. It also lacks multiple inheritance which is nice to have in some cases. But on the other hand it produces tight fast code.

So yes I am leaning more and more to python. But I still need the others to help it along on occasion. I could never stick to one language any how what a bore, I love them all. But VB really pisses me off, what a piece of crap. I can say that , I have been developing in VB at work for the last 5 years.

Cliff Baeseman

Alexandre Grenier wrote 41 lines
----- Original Message ----- From: Baeseman, Cliff To: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:45 PM Subject: RE: [lazarus] new adventure > No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would > not be right for > me to hold up that now would it. > > I just build a new development box and loaded 6.1 on it. I am now busy > getting things > back in order before jumping back in. I am still working python builder in > the mean time also. I am not a language fanatic but I enjoy writing in just > about every thing from Python to assembler. I do not do well when tied to a > project for a long time. I have to jump back and forth between the two to > help keep up my interest. > > Cliff Maybe we should develop a new language that simply kicks ass ;o) I am learning perl right now.. and wow.. that language is incredible! So flexible... I bet a think tank of thinkers that know a lot of languages could develop the smartest most flexible, powerfull, efficient language ever.. taking in consideration the needs for shell-like scripts, CLI programs, CGI, DataBase, RAD.... etc =o) What would you guys rate as the single most powerfull/well designed language? Alex _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus

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Alexandre Grenier
to Baeseman, Cliff: No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would not be right…

----- Original Message -----

Earlier message 34 lines
From: Baeseman, Cliff To: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:45 PM Subject: RE: [lazarus] new adventure > No I am not dropping lazarus. I still hold the QT lib for lazarus it would > not be right for > me to hold up that now would it. > > I just build a new development box and loaded 6.1 on it. I am now busy > getting things > back in order before jumping back in. I am still working python builder in > the mean time also. I am not a language fanatic but I enjoy writing in just > about every thing from Python to assembler. I do not do well when tied to a > project for a long time. I have to jump back and forth between the two to > help keep up my interest. > > Cliff Maybe we should develop a new language that simply kicks ass ;o) I am learning perl right now.. and wow.. that language is incredible! So flexible... I bet a think tank of thinkers that know a lot of languages could develop the smartest most flexible, powerfull, efficient language ever.. taking in consideration the needs for shell-like scripts, CLI programs, CGI, DataBase, RAD.... etc =o) What would you guys rate as the single most powerfull/well designed language? Alex

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Curtis White
to Curtis White: I would love to see Java run as fast as Pascal. If it could, I think it would be the…

I finally cycled my compiler again today for the first time in about three weeks. For some reason, I cannot compile the LCL now. I am wondering if anyone knows what I might be missing?

Here are the errors I am getting:

wincontrol.inc(16,12) Error: Identifier not found CS_OWNDC
wincontrol.inc(16,24) Error: Identifier not found CS_CLASSDC
wincontrol.inc(16,38) Error: Identifier not found CS_PARENTDC
wincontrol.inc(16,53) Error: Identifier not found CS_GLOBALCLASS
wincontrol.inc(16,67) Error: Illegal expression
wincontrol.inc(25,14) Error: Identifier not found GETCLASSINFO
wincontrol.inc(25,27) Error: Identifier not found HINSTANCE
wincontrol.inc(26,13) Error: Identifier not found GETCLASSINFO
wincontrol.inc(27,13) Error: Identifier not found GETCLASSINFO
wincontrol.inc(27,26) Error: Identifier not found MAININSTANCE
wincontrol.inc(28,9) Error: Identifier not found GETCLASSINFO
wincontrol.inc(28,75) Error: Illegal expression
wincontrol.inc(30,54) Error: Identifier not found CS_OFF
wincontrol.inc(251,1) Warning: Function result does not seem to be set
wincontrol.inc(269,1) Warning: Function result does not seem to be set
wincontrol.inc(277,1) Warning: Function result does not seem to be set
wincontrol.inc(553,1) Warning: Function result does not seem to be set
control.inc(410,20) Error: function header doesn't match any method of this
class
control.inc(410,20) Error: This overloaded function can't be local (must be
exported)

Of course, this is also preventing me from compiling Lazarus. Is there a unit that defines these constants that I might be missing?

Curtis

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Kevin Berry

*ARGH* Look at this mess... See my comments below.

--- Francis Smit wrote:

<HR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
&nbsp;
<p>Intranet User 5622 wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
&nbsp;
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING- [...snip...]

Problems with C++Builder:
The intelli-sense (or whatever you want to call it) is much slower than Delphi.
The intelli-sense is less accurate.
WHY? Because C++ is much harder to parse on the
fly...

Your argument about compile time vs runtime does not hold in the context of a RAD tool. Delphi is far
better suited to RAD because the language is not
complicated by MACROS and MULTIPLE INHERITANCE etc. Two way tools are actually far easier to implement with Delphi's language than with C++. The structure of Units (implementation / interface sections) lends itself to far cleaner pre-compilation than
pre-compiled header files do.

BTW, I've used both languages extensively so I do know C++ quite well.

Kevin.

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Francis Smit
to Unknown author: Could I ask you to just type simple ASCII texte: Sea what your message look like in my…
Could I ask you to just type simple ASCII texte: Sea what your message look like in my Email Reader:

Oops sorry I really need to try and make plain text a default

Show quoted text 104 lines
Thank Vital Tremblay At 08:30 99-12-21 +1100, you wrote: ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> ><html> >&nbsp; ><p>Kevin Berry wrote: ><blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have one other thing to add... ><p>IMHO interfaces appear to be a cleaner solution than ><br>C++'s multiple inheritence.&nbsp; Multiple inheritence ><br>makes the compiler much more complex (and therefore ><br>less efficient) doesn't it...&nbsp;&nbsp; Object Pascal is a ><br>nice "clean" language that promotes a RAD type of ><br>development environment without sacrificing power...</blockquote> >NO, NO, NO and NO, multiple inheritance can be ><br>used to implement interfaces, but interfaces give you ><br>only a subset of the power and advantages of multiple ><br>inheritance, I like power, also C++, compilers produce ><br>much faster code than pretty much anything, I don't call ><br>that inefficient, I care far more about runtime efficiency ><br>than Compile time. although C/C++ does all right there too. ><br>As for Rad I have news for you Borland make a twin to ><br>Delphi called C++Builder which has all the Rad of Delphi, ><br>the VCL, roll your own components, the lot, in fact it has ><br>slightly more in that it'll compile Delphi code (Object Pascal) ><br>as well as C++. ><br>Still I like Pascal I'm glad it's still thriving unlike some languages ><br>I could name, It deserves to live. ><blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; ><p>--- Curtis White &lt;> wrote: ><br>> I also love Pascal, but like Cliff said, it is ><br>> sometimes too wordy and ><br>> currently doesn't have a mechanism for multiple ><br>> inheritance (Java doesn't ><br>> officially have multiple inheritance, but it can be ><br>> done with interfaces). ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> Curtis ><br>_________________________________________________________________ ><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To unsubscribe: mail ><br>> with ><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; >"unsubscribe" as the Subject ><br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; archives at ><br>> <a href="http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus">http://www.miraclec.com /list_archives/lazarus</a> ><br>> ><p>__________________________________________________ ><br>Do You Yahoo!? ><br>Thousands of Stores.&nbsp; Millions of Products.&nbsp; All in one place. ><br>Yahoo! Shopping: <a href="http://shopping.yahoo.com">http://shopping.yahoo.com</a> ><p>_________________________________________________________________ ><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To unsubscribe: mail >with ><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; >"unsubscribe" as the Subject ><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; archives at <a href="http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus">http://www.miraclec.com /list_archives/lazarus</a></blockquote> > ><p>-- ><p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; >Grisly&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; . oo ><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;& nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; >`oO ><br>Francis Smit ><br>&nbsp; ><p>Knowledge By Design/OzTel ><br>Suite 201, 683 George st ><br>Sydney 2000 NSW ><p> ><p>Tel: +61 2 9212 1399 ><br>Fax: +61 2 9212 5727 ><br>___________________________________ ><br>m$: How can we stuff you up today? ><br>&nbsp;</html> > >_________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe: mail with > "unsubscribe" as the Subject > archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.miraclec.com/list_archives/lazarus
Grisly . oo `oO Francis Smit Knowledge By Design/OzTel Suite 201, 683 George st Sydney 2000 NSW Tel: +61 2 9212 1399 Fax: +61 2 9212 5727 ___________________________________ m$: How can we stuff you up today?

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