Hi,
I would like to ask you some questions about how I can migrate, ultimately, of Delphi to FPC.
These questions will help me and my friends that working with Delphi.

1- What the connector you use to Postgre and SQLServer, Zeoslib? 2- What the Report designer is more like with ReportBuilder? 3- Do exists something I can do with Delphi but not do with FPC? Especialy on Windows.
4- The Lazarus IDE is the most used, but MSEide is relevant too? Why? 5- Do you use Object Persistence Framework (OPF)? If yes, which is? 5.1- What is the best OPF most used? Would be tiOPF? 6- What FPC/Lazarus provides to DataSets in memory like TClientDataSet in Delphi?
6.1- And about multi-tier applications, what they provides? 7- Is there any other factors we should consider before making this migration, which was not written above?

Thank you.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Marcos Douglas wrote

3- Do exists something I can do with Delphi but not do with FPC? Especialy on Windows.

...

7- Is there any other factors we should consider before making this migration, which was not written above?

1. Are you targeting for Windows-only or multi-platform? If it is Windows-only then you can use Windows specific features, otherwise not.

2. Are you using VCL with Delphi? If yes, then you must use Lazarus + LCL, not only FPC. And then the discussion should actually go to Lazarus list instead of FPC list.

Juha

Marcos Douglas wrote

1- What the connector you use to Postgre and SQLServer, Zeoslib?

For PostgreSQL you can use Zeoslib or SqlDB (included in FCL and part of FPC). For MS SQLServer there is not direct database component, but you should be able to use ODBC (I have done this to talk to MS Access from Linux).

2- What the Report designer is more like with ReportBuilder?

There are a few. I use a custom written one that uses RTF files as report templates. I can use any editor that edits RTF files as my report designer and previewer. In our case we like to use OpenOffice because we can distribute it to all our clients for free, and it's read-only mode makes for a great "report preview" system (OOo hides all toolbars and edit options in read-only mode). We even use OpenOffice to generate PDF's via the non-GUI API.

3- Do exists something I can do with Delphi but not do with FPC?

Probably yes. But this is true from both FPC and Delphi. Each can do something that the others can't - or maybe just with a bit more effort. Have you got a specific feature in mind?

4- The Lazarus IDE is the most used, but MSEide is relevant too? Why?

It's quicker and easier to build, feels faster than Lazarus and seems more stable. Note: I'm talking about the IDE itself, not the GUI toolkits each of them uses. I don't use LCL or MSEgui, but rather fpGUI Toolkit.

If you want to move your GUI forms etc from VCL, then probably LCL will be the quickest to do because Lazarus IDE comes with a Delphi-to-Lazarus conversion tool. If your move is because you want to develop your application for multiple platforms, then you must take other things in consideration too. LCL is maybe not the best choice then either - depending on your needs. fpGUI and MSEgui are custom drawn GUI toolkits, so look and behaviour is identical on all platfroms - theming can be applied to "look more native". This also has the benefit that all features of the GUI toolkit can be used safely in a cross-platform way. With LCL (which wrapper other GUI toolkits), only the most common features of each platform toolkit can be used in a cross-platform way. As soon as you use features that are specific to a platform, your code starts getting riddled with IFDEF statements - not good, and a nightmare to maintain.

This is why our company invested the time to develop fpGUI. We have NO IFDEF's in our code and all components work and behave identical on all platforms - much easier to work with and maintain.

5- Do you use Object Persistence Framework (OPF)? If yes, which is?    5.1- What is the best OPF most used? Would be tiOPF?

Yes, we use tiOPF. I'm a core developer of tiOPF. We use Model-GUI-Mediator (MGM implementation included in tiOPF repository) to make all standard UI components "object aware". No need for DB-aware or custom descendant components to let your Business Objects interact with the UI. MGM supports fpGUI, LCL and VCL.

6- What FPC/Lazarus provides to DataSets in memory like TClientDataSet in Delphi?    6.1- And about multi-tier applications, what they provides?

Due to use using tiOPF, we don't need TClientDataset. I believe FPC is near having a TClientDataset (some minor parts are missing). With tiOPF you can still have multi-tier applications though. tiOPF includes a "remote persistence layer" which uses HTTP as the communication protocol and uses XML to transfer data between tiers. The "app server" runs an embedded HTTP server and many components can be used for this: eg Indy.

7- Is there any other factors we should consider before making this migration, which was not written above?

* Are you planning to target multiple systems, or still just Windows.
* Is your apps GUI or non-GUI. If GUI, then you need to decide what GUI toolkit to use and what
features are important to you. Code maintainability etc.

Our company moved over to FPC (from Delphi 7). First to Kylix 3, then to FPC. Since we started using FPC, we never looked back. It was a good move!

Some MSEgui specific info:

1- What the connector you use to Postgre and SQLServer, Zeoslib?

MSEgui has a forked version of SQLDB with many extensions. For Postgres there is a dedicated database component, SQLServer has been reported to work with tmseodbcconnection. If there is enough interrest and no license problems development of a SQLServer connection component is possible.

2- What the Report designer is more like with ReportBuilder?

MSEgui has an own report engine with a designer in MSEide.

4- The Lazarus IDE is the most used, but MSEide is relevant too? Why?

MSEgui and fpGUI have another approach, they use an own widgetset programmed in Pascal which does not use external widget libraries. Lazarus links to the native widgetset of the operating system or to another external widget library. MSEide is a RAD tool in order to build MSEgui applications and other Pascal and gcc programs.

6- What FPC/Lazarus provides to DataSets in memory like TClientDataSet in Delphi?

MSEgui has tlocaldataset, tmsesqlquery has a disconnected from server mode. tmsebufdataset is the base component, it can maintain a journal for local modifications which are sent to the server later.

6.1- And about multi-tier applications, what they provides?

MSEgui has the experimental MSEifi environment in order to link MSEgui components by communication channels.

Martin

At first Windows, but mult-platform are in my plans.

2. Are you using VCL with Delphi? If yes, then you must use Lazarus + LCL, not only FPC. And then the discussion should actually go to Lazarus list instead of FPC list.

Yes, I use the VCL. I know that LCL is very compatible with VCL, but this is not all.
To migrate a Delphi project to FPC, of course we will use the Lazarus and LCL... but, for new projects, we have others options and, because that, I wrote in fpc-pascal list.

Thanks,
Marcos Douglas

Zeoslib uses ADO too. So, it could be used with MS SQLServer. I think Zeoslib is more faster than ODBC.

You said there are a few, but not wrote names! rs... Well, your solution to reports seems to be very good. Is it an open source project? It is very interesting!

No, nothing specific. You right. This questions is much generic... forget this =)

OK I understand this separation.

But the LCL has the advantage of being developed by the same team of FPC. Let's say it is "safer" to continue evolving. However I agree with you about the dependencies of LCL.

This is very good...

...and this is not so good.

I know you use tiOPF. You even sent me the sources in another mail :) But I did not know you're a core developer of tiOPF. There is a SVN to update?

You uses this solution or just talk about what tiOPF can do? If you uses maybe I could do a few questions about it in private?

For now, just Windows (a pilot project will be coded to assess the migration) after multi-platform.
The GUI toolkit is very important. MSEgui or fpGUI are very interesting, but how many options of components they give us? Actually I use JEDI and RX.

Our company moved over to FPC (from Delphi 7). First to Kylix 3, then to FPC. Since we started using FPC, we never looked back. It was a good move!

It's great to read this, thank you!

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas

Marcos Douglas wrote

Zeoslib uses ADO too. So, it could be used with MS SQLServer. I think Zeoslib is more faster than ODBC.

That depends on the platforms you want to target. AFAIK ADO is Windows-only, so you bind yourself to Microsoft platforms. If you intend to use *nix too, ODBC is the safer way to go, thanks to unixodbc (which can use FreeTDS, a free implementation of the Sybase protocol as used by Sybase and SQL Server). If you have the necessary time at hand, you can maybe implement your own backend for SQLDB/ZEOS that directly uses FreeTDS, completely skipping ODBC/ADO and still being platform independent.

Marcos Douglas wrote

Zeoslib uses ADO too. So, it could be used with MS SQLServer. I think Zeoslib is more faster than ODBC.

Yes, but I was thinking in terms of cross-platform. ADO doesn't exist on other platforms other than Windows. But seeing that Zeoslib itself is cross-platform, it should be easy to switch Zeoslib to use a different database layer when the need arises.

>> 2- What the Report designer is more like with ReportBuilder? You said there are a few, but not wrote names! rs...

ReportMan - available on SourceForge
LazReport - available with Lazarus
FastReport - available on SourceForge (I think)
RTF Report - what our company uses. Available in fpGUI or tiOPF repositories MSEgui Report - available with MSEide&MSEgui project. I think there are a few web/java based reporting tools that could be used too.

Well, your solution to reports seems to be very good. Is it an open source project? It is very interesting!

Yes, included with fpGUI and tiOPF. Currently I use tiRtfReport.pas (reporting engine is a single unit) with tiOPF based apps, but it is very easy to separate out the tiOPF dependency as it already has support for any Data Objects or TDataset descendants as a reporting source. It even supports multiple data sources, and you can extend the reporting functions by writing your own functions and registering them with the reporting engine.

But the LCL has the advantage of being developed by the same team of FPC.

Actually no, it isn't. FPC and Lazarus are separate projects with separate development teams - though they do have a close relationship.

Let's say it is "safer" to continue evolving.

fpGUI has company backing so it is definitely here to stay. MSEgui has also been around for years too. Both fpGUI and MSEgui have stable codebases, and fpGUI even has an increasing development activity year-on-year so these projects are in good health (as is Lazarus LCL). :-)

See the project analysis sections done by Ohloh:

http://www.ohloh.net/p/fpgui
http://www.ohloh.net/p/11134
http://www.ohloh.net/p/lazarus

I know you use tiOPF. You even sent me the sources in another mail :) But I did not know you're a core developer of tiOPF. There is a SVN to update?

Yes, the project is hosted on SourceForge.net. See the tiOPF website for more details.

http://tiopf.sourceforge.net/SourceCodeRepository.shtml

You uses this solution or just talk about what tiOPF can do? If you uses maybe I could do a few questions about it in private?

We are planning to use the remote persistence layer early in the new year, but I know of many Delphi developers that already use it.

The GUI toolkit is very important. MSEgui or fpGUI are very interesting, but how many options of components they give us? Actually I use JEDI and RX.

Both those projects have plenty of UI components covering just about all types of projects. Obviously I can speak more for fpGUI, and can comfortable say that new components are constantly added or existing components improved on. Developing new components for fpGUI is really easy too - and again guarantees that it works the same on all supported platforms.

I have a big app, implemented in Delphi 7. The DBMS is MS SQLServer. Well, we want to develop a few modules to browser and a few using multi-tier (because some modules should be a Desktop app by having to communicate with some peripheral).
To this app, the server would be Windows. The modules from Desktop too. But, in the future, I want to use Linux too.

New apps, I can use PostgreSQL so, no problems with drive connections.

I never use ODBC/FreeTDS on Linux. This is stable? All resources have been implemented like SP's, multi-SQL in the same instruction, etc?

Thanks,
Marcos Douglas

Because that I also asked about multi-tier. The server will be Windows and the app uses SQLServer.
The app, today, is client-server. But I want change this. I want implement an app server, on Windows, using SQLServer (I can't change the RDBMS).

Oh, thank you. I found one more FortesReport :)
Which of these is more like ReportBuilder?

Very interested. I found a link (yours):

You ported it to Free Pascal and fpGUI, very good. You said the reporting engine is a single unit... the reports are implement by code, not designer? In many times, I would like to implement by code because the "visual designer" is limited. So, how RTF Report works?

Oh, I did't know that.

Right... so, this projects are good options too :)

Thanks. I will see later to compare them.

Ok. You work in tiOPF2... thanks, I will get it.

Ok... so, maybe it works fine and stable!.

The fpGUI is compatible with Lazarus? I can install it in him?

Thanks,
Marcos Douglas

Both repositories has the same code? Both are updated?

Thanks,
Marcos Douglas

Marcos Douglas wrote

Oh, thank you. I found one more FortesReport  :) Which of these is more like ReportBuilder?

I have only used ReportMan and tiRTFReport - I can't comment on the others. ReportMan is definately not like ReportBuilder, but it is easy to use. The Report Designer is not that "pretty", but the reporting is just fine. Some features of ReportBuilder like RAP and Data Pipelines are possible in tiRTFReport without issues. So is building a report at runtime, but I wouldn't go as far as comparing them directly. After all, ReportBuilder has been around for many years and is a commercial product. But please do send an email to Digital Metaphors and ask for FPC and Lazarus support. They told me they are watching FPC and Lazarus progress and will port ReportBuilder if there is enough demand.

You said the reporting engine is a single unit... the reports are implement by code, not designer? In many times, I would like to implement by code because the "visual designer" is limited. So, how RTF Report works?

It's rather easy to generate a RTF document from FPC, so it will be just as easy to build a I need to build a custom
report, I create a template listing report, then at runtime I can populate the column titles and data relating to the listing report. Doing a visual report design in OpenOffice just goes so much quicker.

Ok... so, maybe it works fine and stable!.

The remote persistence layer is definitely stable for Delphi development work, and it has been unit tested. Developing it with Free Pascal is untested by me, but I guess I'll find out soon. :)

The fpGUI is compatible with Lazarus? I can install it in him?

fpGUI is not compatible with LCL or VCL, but in many cases it is very similar in style, so it is easy and quick to learn. You can use any IDE to develop fpGUI based applications (we mostly use Lazarus IDE, but sometimes MSEide as well), and it is also very easy to integrate the fpGUI Forms Designer via a External Tools keyboard shortcut.

Op 2010-08-15 18:27, Marcos Douglas het geskryf:

I never use ODBC/FreeTDS on Linux. This is stable? All resources have been implemented like SP's, multi-SQL in the same instruction, etc?

I don't know, I only used Unix ODBC for a data conversion application (MS Access -> Firebird). Unix ODBC has been around for years, so I assume all is well and implemented.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Op 2010-08-15 19:07, Marcos Douglas het geskryf:

Both repositories has the same code? Both are updated? From memory, the one in tiOPF Quarantine directory is a copy of the

original one written for tiOPF1 and was meant for use with VCL.

The one included with fpGUI is slightly modified to compile with tiOPF2+fpGUI. I had to disable image support because at the time fpGUI only read BMP images. Changes were minimal, so you can use either one as a starting point.

Regards,
- Graeme -

I've used ODBC on Linux to connect between OpenOffice and PostgreSQL. Working from memory, I didn't have any significant problems which I could blame on ODBC, so in general it's probably OK as a compatibility layer.

Having said that, there are some server-specific things that it quite simply doesn't know about, such as PostgreSQL's listen/notify actions. Very often it is "extras" like that that drive ones selection of a particular server, so one ends up having to compromise between on the one hand using a compatibility layer to improve portability and on the other using a server-specific library to be able to use all its facilities.