Hi Nickolay
Thanks for helping explain.
I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;)

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

^^^
The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions.

I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna".

Jacob

Thank you so much for your concerns Jacob, advocating for the “rights” of pascal developers. That is so kind of you. How long have you been here? A month? Now that definitely takes dedication.. Please take your “help” elsewhere.The people in the channels that I manage don’t want you around can you guess why? Don’t bother trying to sneak in under a new name to spy on us either. I’ve made a private channel for all discussions of any significance .

You have helped rid #fpc of two useless lurkers who never contributed anything and I commend you for that.

Now let’s have a look at your non existent code shall we? Please tell the nice people here about that Fpc not using “&” Instead of “and” problem of yours and that precious “code“ that can’t be defiled by being fixed to work properly with fpc...

^^^
This sounds like paranoia to me.

The code we are using is built with an old Pascal compiler called Pascal/MT+, its an old compiler from around 1983.

Again, the code is proprietary, I don't own it, the company I work for does, so I cannot just simply upload it to some public place.

If "Joanna" would bother to look in the manual here

http://www.cpm.z80.de/manuals/MTplusMan.pdf

and look on page 40, "4.3 Logical Expressions", him/her/it would see that the compiler uses C-style operators, like "&", for doing bitwise operations.

There are more incompatibilities compared to what fpc can currently parse, like the placement of the "external" keyword, the syntax for units (Pascal/MT+ calls them "modules"), the fact that local variables are *not* allocated on the stack by default, etc.

We are considering patching fpc to support a "Pascal/MT+" mode, but so far we've made good enough progress by automatically converting the sources with perl scripts to a dialect of Pascal that fpc can parse. And frankly, although "Joanna" doesn't actually represent fpc development in any way, the encounter with him/her/it has not been in favor of us contributing back to fpc, I'm sorry to say.

Jacob

Jacob Kroon wrote

And frankly, although "Joanna" doesn't actually represent fpc development in any way, the encounter with him/her/it has not been in favor of us contributing back to fpc, I'm sorry to say.

FWIW: one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel...

This is not true. The *real* reason is that none of the current FPC developers has the time and dedication to moderate an IRC channel. Note that there are two people from the FPC team (me and Karoly) who were given moderator access by Joanna, who registered the channel. That's how it became an official channel. However, unfortunately, it turned out that in practice neither me, nor Karoly has the time to moderate the channel, so it's de facto not moderated by the FPC team. That was the reason for the decision to no longer list it as an "official" channel.

Note that if someone from the FPC team (e.g. fpk, oliebol, Tomas Hajny, etc.) wants to moderate the channel, I will give them access. However, I will not remove Joanna's access, because this will make the channel effectively unmoderated and we saw how well that worked in 2020 on freenode, when the channel was turned into a burning trash can by trolls and it was impossible to talk about then, I had to intervene and ban a few people, because the FPC moderators back then weren't doing their job, due to lack of time. Now, at least, there is a group of people, who talk about Pascal. In fact, I looked at the channel logs. There were people (not Joanna!), who cheered after your ban. Apparently people in the channel were discussing something else (Pascal-related) and overall weren't very interested in talking about using C-style bitwise operators in Pascal. I'm sorry to say that, but when there are people, who are happy about your ban, this shows it's not just Joanna, but also others, so maybe #fpc was not the best place to discuss your problem anyway and it's good that you found help on the mailing lists. Maybe a ban was an overreaction, but you probably wouldn't have found much help on the channel anyway. To be fair, I will say that there were also people, who questioned your ban, and I probably wouldn't have banned you, if I were there, moderating the channel (I'm online, but most of time I'm afk, just recording logs). However, there's a majority of people, who are happy with Joanna's moderation and are not disgruntled and eager to leave.

Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. I know growing a channel takes time, but if you're serious about providing an alternative channel, you should at least set the topic. It doesn't take that much effort. Of course, there are only first impressions, and in the long term, they can turn out to be wrong, and maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment.

And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer).

So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc.

As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions.

Sure! The mailing lists are great! I'm happy to hear that they are working for you!

I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna".

Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. That's how IRC works. I don't think #pascal was ever an official FPC channel. In fact, I got founder access there too, just by asking her nicely. Many times, this approach works much better, compared to the confrontational approach. Once again, if someone wants to moderate the channel, I can give them access to #pascal. The only condition is, it needs to be someone trusted, from the FPC community, and not some newcomer (we're talking channel operator access here).

Best regards,

Nikolay

I have uploaded all the #fpc logs I have before I got banned here:

https://justpaste.it/cfh0e
(I am "kroon" in the logs)

In short, the conversation starts with me talking to "nickysn", Nikolay Nikolov, the person I am replying to in this email, and after a while he gets silent, and user "Joanna" joins and starts interrogating me.

I don't think anyone who reads those logs would consider me "confrontational".

After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna".

Jacob

Jacob Kroon wrote

After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna".

Are you joking?

Nikolay

I actually smiled. Let's just say that what I see from Joanna doesn't resonate at all with knowing Nikolay IRL.

No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna".

But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided.

Jacob

Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion....

Tomas

No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here:

https://justpaste.it/cfh0e

If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being you think I am wrong, please
explain where and why,

Jacob

As long as we are on the topic of trolling ..
I would like giantm (Marc) or anyone else who was there for a long duration to share the channel logs for what happened in #lazarus channel {which is unfortunately an official channel with link in forums website} after I became unable to moderate it. I never did much there besides ban people actually trolling. Lurkers were always allowed.

Contrast the channel before which didn’t have much activity with the spam discrediting Lazarus ide and promoting their cancel culture campaign to hijack our #fpc channel and directing people to Fpc-other.

Now that they have for the time being given up on the goal of hijacking #fpc, it seems to be just the colo account in there saying things to make Lazarus ide look like it has problems.

I don’t think that leaving the #lazarus channel like this is a good idea and definitely is not going to encourage anyone to use Lazarus ide. I advise that the channel should either be moderated properly or shut down.

What more do you want? I'm not Joanna and I didn't ban you. The channel is run by her, because none of the FPC developers (including me) have time. Therefore, it's not an official FPC channel. You're free to join the alternative channel #fpc-alt, or create your own.

I called you confrontational, because you went on a crusade against her, on the mailing list, instead of trying to talk to her and cooperate and gain her trust. I understand it's annoying for new users to be interrogated. I don't think it's the right approach, but I don't have time to try to do a better , 2 years ago, the
channel on FreeNode was practically unmoderated, and was overrun by trolls and the experience was horrible for both new users as well as for old users. Now, at least, the existing users are fine and it's possible to discuss normal things about Pascal, but unfortunately new users have to jump through hoops, until they gain Joanna's trust. It's not exactly a dictatorship, it's probably better compared to a "visa regime". But 2 years ago, it was a burning trash can/landfill. I'm afraid that without moderation the channel will turn back to what it was back then. Moderating a channel is not that easy.

I think the solution to no longer endorse #fpc as an official channel is fair. Since FPC developers don't have the time to moderate an official channel, anybody can join any unofficial channel that they want. If you don't like Joanna's policies, you can join #fpc-alt, make it a better and more welcoming to new users place and, if you're doing a better job it will eventually grow bigger than #fpc and most people will prefer it. Or, if you're unhappy with #fpc-alt's moderation, you can create another unofficial channel and do an even better job.

Also, things like your issues are probably better discussed on a mailing list or forum anyway. On IRC, in a single channel, there can usually be only one discussion at a time, and it's necessary for the people in this moment to be interested in the topic. On a forum or mailing list, you can post a topic and wait for an answer and it doesn't interfere with people, who discuss other topics. On IRC, posting a question, while other people are talking about something else can be perceived at trying to hijack the conversation and shut it down. I'm not saying you were doing that, but it can be perceived that way, while that's less likely to happen in forums and mailing lists.

I won't comment much on your accusations of me being Joanna's sock puppet account. All I'm going to say, it's at best a very bad judgement on your part, at worst - a very lame won't
necessarily assume malicious intent on your part, however it's bordering on being very suspicious. So let's pretend you never said it.

Nikolay

Jacob,

First let me say that I am someone who has been in your position, I have some applications that I wrote in Turbo Pascal for DOS that I wanted to get working on a modern PC, and I came across FreePascal. Many times things just don't work the way they used to and I needed quite a bit of help, and I can say I am extremely impressed and thankful for the help I have received from the FPC mailing list. Nikolay has helped me tremendously and has even modified PTCPAS to work with my application, something which I am also very grateful for. My current version of my old Turbo Pascal program now does amazing things that I would have never even dreamed of back in the day.

Also I do not use IRC at all, not just #FPC, I do not use IRC. So I do not know Joanna. You asked for an opinion on your trasnscript so I read it and I am offering you an impartial third party opinion.

I see your point and it's frustrating when you can't make something work that used to work on another system, but the people who have helped me have taken the time to explain ways to work around whatever the issues are.. yes I did need to re-write some of my code to make it work, but that was time well spend. It's not always easy to just change a system as complicated as FreePascal... but in any case, the IRC is not the place to discuss such things, and the ban message you received was to go get help in the forums. The forums make much more sense to have a discussion of this nature because you can't expect the development team to be on your schedule to chat with you live about it on IRC.. IRC is a TERRIBLE place to discuss complicated issues like getting your code to compile on FPC, it assumes that the people who could help you have nothing better to do than to sit there waiting to help you.

I read the 'Evidence' and in that format it is very hard to follow, but it seems to me that Joanna was genuinely trying to help, and just wanted to see an example of the code. I think it is COMPLETELY unreasonable for you not to send some kind of example code that illustrates what you are trying to compile. If you are asking for someone to help you and they want information that will help them see what you are trying to do, then YOU comply and send them what they ask for, to not send some sample code is very rude. I do technical support and if one of my PAYING customers asked me to help with, something but refused to send me an example of the problem, then I would just tell them, sorry I can't help you if I don't have an example of this.

You didn't need to send the whole application, that is no help at all, just a simple snippet that illustrates what you are trying to get working. Who knows maybe someone could help you with some workaround to make it work.. but without seeing the code you are making it difficult for people to help you.

Also it seemed to me that when Joanna asked you who you were on the forums, it was so you could get help there, perhaps it was so she could continue the discussion with you there, I don't see any reason why you should take offense to her asking you for your user ID on the forums.

The Ban message was: You have been kicked from #fpc by Joanna (please go get help in forums) I don't see that as being offensive... it's simply saying 'this is not the place for this, please pose your question on the forums' She obviously banned you so you would be forced to use the forum, which is the correct place to discuss such things, if she did not ban you, I guarantee you would have just logged right back in.

So instead of coming to the forums and posting your questions, you went on this rampage about being banned. You were the one overreacting. In my opinion.

IRC is completely the wrong place to discuss such things, as Nikolay mentioned, the FPC developers have other things to do that sit and chat on IRC, posting questions on the forums gives the people who could help you a chance to get to it on a schedule that works for them, it is unreasonable for you to expect them to be available to chat with you live to help you with your issues.

If you want help getting something to work, you really need to provide some sample code. I can't understand why you would refuse to send some code.. just type out a few lines to illustrate what you are trying to compile and explain how it used to work on this other system. When people keep asking for information and you refuse to provide it, you can't expect them not to get frustrated with you. They don't owe you a thing, if you want their help, you should comply with their requests. I found it EXTREMELY rude of you not to provide some kind of sample code. I would NEVER post a request for help and then refuse to comply with such a simple request. And I must point out that requesting code to me seemed a genuine attempt to help you with your issue.

Apr 11 11:15:25 <Joanna> Kroon can we see your code ? Apr 11 11:16:24 <kroon> Joanna, no

I find this alone a good reason to ban you... saying No to such a simple request from someone who was taking their valuable time to try to help you was VERY RUDE of you. Maybe she could have given you a warning, but I think she just had it with you. Why should she waste her time trying to help you when she can't see what you are working with. I would not bother with you either.. How can she help you when you won't even give her a sample code? You could cut and paste 10 lines of code that show what you are trying to compile. If you think you have some proprietary information in the code, the just type something that represents what you are trying to do, and just a snippet of the problem area.. not the whole application, that should be obvious. You come across like someone who expects everyone to do everything to make FPC compatible with your application, you want it done NOW, and you don't want to even be bothered with a simple request for sample code. That may not me how you meant to come across, but that's the impression I got.

This is the way I see it, when you were asked for code you did not provide it, and when you were asked for your username on the forums you did not provide that either, I'm sure the situation could have been handled better on both sides, but when you are the one asking for free help for a free program that people donate many hours of time to make available, then you should comply with their requests, which I did not find unreasonable, and not act like making this code you have compile is something that is owed to you. You asked, and this is the way I see it. I hope it gives you a different point of view. Part of the problem here is everyone thinks they are right, and can't or won't try to see another point of view.

Can we put an end to all this and in my opinion you are the one who should be apologizing, and if you want help with your program the forums are the best place. Starting new IRC channels is useless, the developers of FPC aren't even necessarily in your time zone.

Sincerely,

James

Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other said on Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:39:04 +0300

Today at about 7PM New York time, prompted by a suggestion on ##fpc-alt, I added the following /topic to #fpc-alt:

===============================================
Topic for #fpc-alt is: Ontopic list for Free Pascal. Offtopic channel is ##fpc-alt. Rules: Treat your fellow channel inhabitants like you'd like to be treated.
===============================================

I also created a similar /topic for ##fpc-alt , which is the offtopic FPC channel.

I know growing a channel takes time,

Yes. Also, these are the first two IRC channels I've ever managed. I've managed mailing lists, but never IRC channels. So I have a lot to learn.

My first choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to be in charge of #fpc. My second choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to take over #fpc-alt. The only reason I registered and run #fpc-alt is because people who are genuinely using or thinking about using FreePascal need a place they can listen, ask or help without fear of banning. I have lots of ambitions, but believe me, being king of an IRC channel isn't one of them. :-)

[snip]

maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment.

I hope so, and I hope that later somebody more invested in FreePascal will take over #fpc-alt.

And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer).

Even though #lazarus has only about 20 people, they managed to give me some help on sound issues.

So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc.

I wouldn't call it "plenty", because there are a few hundred on #fpc, and it's my opinion that a lot of them would be more forthcoming with help if they weren't worried about the possibility of being censured for giving the help using the wrong phrases.

[snip]

Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network.

Speaking *only* of #fpc and not #pascal, my understanding of the events is:

1) Freenode's #fpc was an official FreePascal venue.

2) Freenode went bad.

3) Joanna registered #fpc on before anyone else.

4) Joanna banned 42 people and, in my informed opinion, made the rules all about her personal preferences.

Smarter people than I could argue whether this constitutes "hijacking", but her taking channel name #fpc, a channel that used to be an official project channel, has caused, is continuing to cause, and will continue to cause in the future serious confusion.

So I say to everyone, whether you're banned on #fpc or not, join us on #fpc-alt, and if you want, the offtopic ##fpc-alt. I'm not asking you to stop using #fpc, I'm just saying get on both and see which you like better. May the better channel win.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

Jacob Kroon via fpc-other said on Fri, 28 Apr 2023 23:31:02 +0200

Come join us on #fpc-alt and ##fpc-alt. You'll be striking a blow for a helpful FreePascal environment.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

There's also a lot of documentation on the Libera Chat website:

https://libera.chat/guides/#running-a-channel

Yes, and:

1.5) In 2020, Freenode's #fpc channel was being ruined by a troll, who was flooding the channel with crap, offtopic links and misinformation about Pascal and would hijack and steer every real Pascal discussion to absurd topics, like, for example, whether the moon landings were faked. It's not like offtopic discussion was banned, but he was disrupting any regular and meaningful talk. It was horrible, I have described it several times as a burning trash can. The FPC moderators at the time didn't do anything, even though Joanna complained on the forums:

https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=51491.0

As a result, I was given access to the #fpc channel. Joanna was not given access, but I banned the troll, and things went better. However, Joanna would often advise me when she thinks someone is a troll and ask me to ban him/her. She was always suspicious of newcomers. She didn't like it, when a new users comes and starts lurking, etc. However, I would exercise my own judgement. I'll admit that, there were several occasions, where it looked like an overreaction, but it turned out that her intuition was right.

Eventually, due to real life issues, I started having less and less time to spend on IRC, so Joanna would contact me on the forums, if she thinks someone needs to be banned. I would then look at the channel logs and exercise my own judgement.

2) Freenode went bad.

Yes.

3) Joanna registered #fpc on before anyone else.

Yes. At the time, none of the FPC developers had any time to spend on IRC moderation. I asked Joanna for access to the channel, and then I gave access to Karoly Balogh, who was also on IRC, so that we have some official FPC people as moderator. However, in practice, none of us had any time to watch the channel.

4) Joanna banned 42 people and, in my informed opinion, made the rules all about her personal preferences.

Apparently, yes. Although I suspect some of them are legit users, who got banned, but there were also genuine trolls, who often use sock puppet accounts. So, some of these 42 accounts are actually fewer people. However, who is a troll and who isn't - I don't know. At this point, I wasn't really moderating the channel anymore. I suspect it's maybe 2 or 3 trolls using many sock puppet accounts and several legit users, but this is just guesswork. The truth is, I don't know.

Smarter people than I could argue whether this constitutes "hijacking", but her taking channel name #fpc, a channel that used to be an official project channel, has caused, is continuing to cause, and will continue to cause in the future serious confusion.

Yes, but the problem is, we don't have time and we cannot trust yet another stranger. And, objectively, the channel right now is in a better shape, compared to the time in 2020, when it was effectively abandoned. However, there's now this vetting process that is off-putting for certain newcomers. Once you pass through it and gain Joanna's trust, you're pretty much free to talk about anything you want. Existing users aren't walking on eggshells and are quite happy. That's one reason I don't want to disrupt them. But new users are treated with too much suspicion.

So I say to everyone, whether you're banned on #fpc or not, join us on #fpc-alt, and if you want, the offtopic ##fpc-alt. I'm not asking you to stop using #fpc, I'm just saying get on both and see which you like better. May the better channel win.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Nikolay

I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Thank you very much in advance.

As a reminder, already in October 2022, two of the IRC network operators of the libera IRC network you registered the fpc-related channels on judged your moderation actions after having observed them for a while as (I quote) the following:

[16:26:37] <Boohumbug> colo: Vote with your feet. This channel is, unfortunately, quite toxic and there looks to be no one that cares enough to address it.
[16:27:10] <Boohumbug> This is now the third user that this particular op has forced out of the channel in the few days I've been present. [16:27:53] <Joanna> I completely agree. Nobody should stay in a channel where they are unhappy.
[16:28:17] <Boohumbug> You are, as always, missing the very obvious point. [16:28:28] <Joanna> What is that?
[16:28:39] <jess-o-lantern> that you're running the channel quite toxicly [16:28:41] <Boohumbug> _YOU_ are the common denominator in this.

[16:29:42] <jess-o-lantern> there's nothing staff can or should do about that, channels are free to run themselves how they want, but my opinion is you're running this channel with unnecessary and arbitrary use of power

[16:38:45] <Boohumbug> colo: This channel is inarguably in the wrong namespace. We don't enforce the rule but it does exist. You are free to create ##fpc if you'd like and perhaps others will feel as you do that this channel is toxic and move elsewhere if they had a suitable place to go. [16:40:00] <Joanna> Boohumbug I agree
[16:40:16] <Boohumbug> I'm not looking for your agreement. [16:40:19] <colo> Boohumbug, I do understand that option, but I have no standing whatsoever in the free pascal community (only started engaging with it a few weeks ago), and I don't feel like I could be an appropriate steward of that community (or channel) as a result
[16:40:50] <Boohumbug> ## channels are first-come first-serve. They don't need to represent a project, they just need someone to watch over them. [16:41:32] <Boohumbug> But the suggestion stands. As jess pointed out there is nothing we can do to try to address this issue here; the powers that be have made their stance known and nothing is going to change.

(More context, for anyone who cares: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1273023)

Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other said on Sat, 29 Apr 2023 09:40:03 +0300

It's true. There are people who deliberately sow discord. They ruin formerly good communication venues, and they should be immediately kicked out of the venue. I once saw a flame war tear apart a wonderful Linux group: It was horrible.

You have my word that on #fpc-alt and ##fpc-alt, I'll remove anyone who is just trying to start trouble for trouble's sake. I didn't put that in the topic yet, but when it becomes necessary, I will, and I'll also give the troublemaker a warning before banning him or her if the deliberate troublemaking continues.

I've done this before, on a mailing list I controlled. It's amazing how few people you have to ban to have a civilized and productive venue. I banned three people, two of whom never knew they were banned. In the 19 year history of the GoLUG (Greater Orlando Linux User Group) I probably had to issue about 10 warnings, and once I put every single person under moderation to stop a rapidly developing flame war. It never happened again.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm

Hi Tomas,

^^^
I think that is an odd decision; for transparency I think its better to have the conversation on the mailing list.

I find it very odd the way you write above, and that you insist on defending Nikolay/Joanna.

Jacob

Jacob Kroon wrote

I find it very odd the way you write above, and that you insist on defending Nikolay/Joanna.

Nikolay is a member of the FPC core team. As a result, we know him fairly well. He really is not Joanna.

Jonas

Hello everybody,

Please, note that this thread (already very long) will become moderated now and no further posts will be let through unless I or some other list moderator believe that there"s a very good reason for it.

Thanks for your understanding

Tomas
(one of FPC mailing list moderators)