Hello,

Check this...

http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/01/09/1647217

... huge accounting program. Formerly propietary, now GPL, that is in need from porting from Delphi to Free Pascal to become true free software.

The only problem is, they are not only considering Free Pascal, but also Python.

Goal: convince the Turbocash project that Free Pascal is the best choice, at least much better than Python.
- http://www.turbocash.co.za

It is big in the press, LWN mentions it as well:

http://lwn.net/Articles/168143/

Please check if it appears on other news sites and please guard the sites mentioned for "Pascal is a language for noobs"-like trolling.

Daniël

What functionality are they using from the BDE ?

Micha

Op Thu, 19 Jan 2006, schreef Micha Nelissen:

I'm still trying to find out, but it seems mostly that they store all user data in a Paradox database, which the BDE allows access to without installing Paradox.

Daniël

Daniël Mantione wrote

http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/01/09/1647217

Hey! The writter of that article is clearly pro-Python! There is a lot of personal oppinion in that article. What kind of approach you were thinking at to talk to the authors of the project?

"The debates surrounding these decisions sum up the major problem that the new TurboCASH faces: its 20- year legacy is both its greatest asset and its main liability. For example, it's unlikely that a brand new project would have a debate over FreePascal/Lazarus or Python. Python is the language of the moment, particularly in GNOME circles. Pascal is, arguably, the great also-ran of programming languages. However, TurboCASH has to weigh the benefits of any new language against the potential for alienating its existing development team."

Op Thu, 19 Jan 2006, schreef Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho:

On 1/19/06, Daniël Mantione wrote: > http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/01/09/1647217 Hey! The writter of that article is clearly pro-Python!

Yes...

There is a lot of personal oppinion in that article. What kind of approach you were thinking at to talk to the authors of the project?

For a start I'm going to download the source, look at the source and post my views how they can approach the move to fpc. We'll then see what the reactions will be and we might get an idea how serious the Python threat is.

Daniël

I read this story before:
http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=756

Also this is not the first mention of porting TurboCash to fpc/lazarus: http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=437

Vincent

Hey! The writter of that article is clearly pro-Python!

I wonder... why most developers still think negatively about (object) Pascal? Don't they ever heard about Delphi (in propietary world) or the great FPC (in FLOSS world)? NO matter how good Delphi or FPC is, they still talking about the lack and bad of Pascal! :( I'd like to argue with them about this! :|

About the TurboCASH, I don't think it'd be easy to port it to FPC/Lazarus, though it's still possible. First, the UI component, the biggest problem IMO. They use a very complex and advance grid component (QuantumGrid) which we don't have a clone for FPC/Lazarus (yet). Second, the BDE. Firebird would the best alternative IMO, since it can be run as client/server database, also as embedded database, without changing any lines in the code. This'd be a big advantage for TurboCASH and the users. But, converting BDE to Firebird is not as easy as it said. :) However, if someone will really do TurboCASH Delphi-to-FPC convertion project, I'd really like to help. :)

By the way... currently I'm working on a dictionary application (Indonesian-English and vice versa) using FPC/Lazarus, also a convertion from Delphi. Can I put this project of mine on FPC site? On which section? Whom I should contact? Thanks.

Regards,

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at
http://beeography.modblog.com

The only reason those people think Pascal is bad is because it's been around for so long; they don't realize that it's maturing.

On the other hand, they might hate it because they're afraid it's going to take over their language.

Sincerely,
Alex C. Barberi
Chief Executive Officer
VisionForce
http://www.visionforceweb.com

VisionForce wrote

On the other hand, they might hate it because they're afraid it's going to take over their language.

I think it's mainly prejudice and ignorance. And many Pascal advocates are guilty of exactly the same thing when it comes to other languages...

Jonas

Op Thu, 19 Jan 2006, schreef Bisma Jayadi:

By the way... currently I'm working on a dictionary application (Indonesian-English and vice versa) using FPC/Lazarus, also a convertion from Delphi. Can I put this project of mine on FPC site? On which section? Whom I should contact? Thanks.

I plan to continue work on the gallery soon, I think it would be nice to have it there, otherwise put it on the links page. Just contact one of the developers, all of us can modify the web site.

Daniël

If it using Lazarus feel free to add it to:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Projects_using_Lazarus

Vincent

TurboCASH FPC convertion project will be a good start to prove the power of FPC/Lazarus. Though it requires highly skilled developers -since it's a big and complex application-, some FPC experts has to take this chance. I believe lots of FPC fans will contribute to this project. :)

Regards,

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at
http://beeography.blogsome.com

Thank you, Daniël. As soon as I got an account on SourceForge for my project, I'll contact FPC site webmaster. :)

Regards,

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at
http://beeography.blogsome.com

I took the flag and posted an article with a successfull linux port with Lazarus on their Google Developers group:
http://groups.google.com.br/group/TurboCASH?lnk=li

Does Python have any IDE comparable with lazarus?

Does Python run as fast as FPC?

As far as I know it does not have IDE at all.. The same with Perl and almost anything else.
The only "IDE like" for GTK (To make visual things in GTK) that I know of is Glade... but I can use it to develop Pascal programs as well... so it's more like saying "Pascal is out Python is In".

It's easier to convert Delphi to FPC then to write everything from scratch to any other language out there... specially Python.

Ido

> Please check if it appears on other news sites and please guard the sites > mentioned for "Pascal is a language for noobs"-like trolling. Does Python have any IDE comparable with lazarus?

Boa constructor IIRC.

Micha

Paul Davidson wrote

> Does Python have any IDE comparable with lazarus? Does Python run as fast as FPC?

We already know that!

You need to tell this to the TurboCash guys :-)

You all may hate me after I say this, but creating software in VB or VB.NET goes very, very quickly. But I guess since you're trying to advocate Pascal right now, this information doesn't help you any.

Sincerely,
Alex C. Barberi
Chief Executive Officer
VisionForce
http://www.visionforceweb.com

Does Python run as fast as FPC?

VisionForce wrote

You all may hate me after I say this, but creating software in VB or VB.NET goes very, very quickly. But I guess since you're trying to advocate Pascal right now, this information doesn't help you any.

Well, my personal experience is, that in total Delphi/Object Pascal is still faster because it's less error prone.

VisionForce wrote

You all may hate me after I say this, but creating software in VB or VB.NET goes very, very quickly. But I guess since you're trying to advocate Pascal right now, this information doesn't help you any.

The last time I used VB (version 6), it took me a way too much work for the same thing I wanted to do in Delphi.
And .NET contain some very scary features for everyone (It actually execute your code in design time, so if I'll open a form, it will execute everything in it's functions that regarding the open and display things, and I can do some nasty things with it).

And it's not portable for other OS's. and IMHO, VB should have died so long ago in the 80's when it syntax became obsolete.

Ido

Well that's interesting, I didn't know that. How is that so? I mean, what makes it less error prone? Isn't it the programmer?

Op Thu, 19 Jan 2006, schreef Florian Klaempfl:

Well, also, in VB as long as you stay on the paths M$ has set out, it goes fast and well. This stops at the moment you are asked to program something not on M$ path (i.e. a listbox should type instead of jump to the first character when you press a key). Then you walk against a wall of difficulty and often even impossibility. In Pascal there is always a possibility and it is just as easy as other programming tasks.

Daniël

VisionForce wrote

You all may hate me after I say this, but creating software in VB or VB.NET goes very, very quickly. But I guess since you're trying to advocate Pascal right now, this information doesn't help you any.

Yes it does, if you can provide the main reasons for that and we improve it =)

My guess would be that those are IDE related.

Op Thu, 19 Jan 2006, schreef VisionForce:

Well that's interesting, I didn't know that. How is that so? I mean, what makes it less error prone? Isn't it the programmer?

An important issue is that you don't need tricks to accomplish things, i.e. in VB as soon as you start to call handleevents (if I get the name right) to make right program more interactive you enter hell. Pascal has of course real threads with read thread facilities, but even then, very few Delphi programs need to call handleevents because the VCL is so much better than the VB UI toolkit.

Just one of the many examples....

Daniël

The last time I used VB (version 6), it took me a way too much work for the same thing I wanted to do in Delphi.
And .NET contain some very scary features for everyone (It actually execute your code in design time, so if I'll open a form, it will execute everything in it's functions that regarding the open and display things, and I can do some nasty things with it).

And it's not portable for other OS's. and IMHO, VB should have died so long ago in the 80's when it syntax became obsolete.

Ido

--------------------------------

Yes, I never use VB6. But VB.NET is much more powerful, and programs can be created in it in half the time. I don't understand what you mean by "very scary features."

Alex

VisionForce wrote

Well that's interesting, I didn't know that. How is that so? I mean, what makes it less error prone?

The syntax and semantics of language can be designed in a way to avoid common mistakes and reduce debugging time.

Isn't it the programmer?

The language can help the programmer to write error free code.

Yes it does, if you can provide the main reasons for that and we improve it =)

My guess would be that those are IDE related.

VisionForce wrote

You all may hate me after I say this, but creating software in VB or VB.NET goes very, very quickly. But I guess since you're trying to advocate Pascal right now, this information doesn't help you any.

The first programming language I learned was VB.

I always had that fealling of: "I cannot do what I what! I always have to work trick VB into doing what I want". And I have seen many people with this fealling. This is just because VB is not suitable for doing more than a simple dialog that has a OCX control inside it.

Everytime you want to do something serious, you hit the wall into VB´s limitations. A very frustrating tool =)

Then I found Delphi ... and all those things I ever wanted to do were now possible! I was no longer restricted to using controls created with c++ and drawing buttons.

Oh well, you people have beat me down. No more VB.NET stuff (but uh, Daniel, you must be thinking of VB6; VB.NET is much different).

Anyway I could turn this newsgroup into something http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups if you people wanted.

Alex C. Barberi

Yes, I never use VB6. But VB.NET is much more powerful, and programs can be created in it in half the time. I don't understand what you mean by "very scary features."

VB is now obsolete and it´s code doesn´t work on VB.NET. What will you do when Microsoft also drop VB.NET??

They really like to change all their standards so they become complete incompatible with everything they ever created and people have to buy new software, and recode everything again.

Look at MS Office 2003. It has a nice feature. You can save into a XML format completely incompatible with MS Office 2000 =)

VCL applications exist for about a decade now, and they have a very bright future with the LCL being ported to other platforms.

VisionForce wrote

Anyway I could turn this newsgroup into something http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups if you people wanted.

Are you proposing that you create a web-reading tool for this newsgroup?

If not ... they I did not understand this...

Yes, I never use VB6. But VB.NET is much more powerful, and programs can be created in it in half the time. I don't understand what you mean by "very scary features."

VB is now obsolete and it´s code doesn´t work on VB.NET. What will you do when Microsoft also drop VB.NET??

They really like to change all their standards so they become complete incompatible with everything they ever created and people have to buy new software, and recode everything again.

Look at MS Office 2003. It has a nice feature. You can save into a XML format completely incompatible with MS Office 2000 =)

VCL applications exist for about a decade now, and they have a very bright future with the LCL being ported to other platforms.

----- Original Message -----

VisionForce wrote

Exactly! And a very nice one at that! , then, all help is appreciated ^^

thanks,

VisionForce wrote

Exactly! And a very nice one at that! , then, all help is appreciated ^^

thanks,

It's not the advocacy that is needed but rather they need code for it to work. It says right in the article.

Try this: http://www.securiteam.com/windowsntfocus/5KP0D0AHFU.html

On this case it will only open you the calc.exe program, but i can make it open for you anything you want at design time. All you need to do is to view the form...

Thanks for the info; I don't find that to be a big problem though. The reason it executes the control automatically is because a lot of custom controls have design features added to their Load function and you would want to see these visual changes on your form.

Sincerely,
Alex C. Barberi
Chief Executive Officer
VisionForce
http://www.visionforceweb.com

VisionForce wrote

Thanks for the info; I don't find that to be a big problem though. The reason it executes the control automatically is because a lot of custom controls have design features added to their Load function and you would want to see these visual changes on your form.

You are missing the point.

Lets explains it simple (I admit that before I tested it myself, it took me an argument with my boss, and I said it was not a vulnerability :)):

Lets say that if you use your favorit text editor (notepad.exe for our example), the simple text file will execute also visual studio because you have the words "visual studio" on the text file. You must remember that notepad does not parse text, only display it. Thats the vulnerability in this case.

You only views the form (no component on it!) and it execute a code on the from event. You did not compile anything or run anyting... only viewd a from.

If you would have used a component and the component whould have executed calc.exe then I would agree that it is not a vulnerability.

Ido

It's not the advocacy that is needed but rather they need code for it to work. It says right in the article.

I think we should stop the VB vs Pascal discussion now. It's useless since we all here already know which is the winner. Even Alex himself had already knew about this, no need to convince him more.

So, let's back to the main topic that had started this thread: The TurboCash Delphi-to-FPC convertion project. Let's do some (real) actions! First, somebody has to convince the TurboCash guys over there that FPC/Lazarus is the best alternative compiler and IDE to make TurboCash compiled and run natively on Linux (and other platforms as well). But don't make Python look bad... good Pascal guys don't like to say bad things about other programming languages. Just list the advantages of FPC/Lazarus over Python, regarding to this project.

Second, some other person has to do some PR things on this issue. This could be done on FreshMeat or NewsForge or any open-source news media that had published this issue before. Convince other people that FPC/Lazarus can do the work, even it's the best alternative.

The last and the most important is... make a developer team who will do the convertion work. There are LOTS of things need to be done since TurboCash is very Delphi and win32 specific application.

So... who will start this? :)

Regards,

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at
http://beeography.blogsome.com

Actually (at least with what I wrote above), there is a lesson for all of us (regardless of the language), of how not to do things :)

Well if you will publish it on more then one place it will also be good (slashdot, newsforge etc).

The last and the most important is... make a developer team who will do the convertion work. There are LOTS of things need to be done since TurboCash is very Delphi and win32 specific application.

There is an FPC unit (I don't remember it name for now) that allow you to store "Windows Registry" like access to a XML. It is possible to use it for any registry access.

For downloading, the lNet can be used (there might be a need for HTTP 1.0 and 1.1 and SSL implementation tough).

So... who will start this? :)

On my todo list, there is a native DOM, HTML4.1 and CSS1,2,3 parser to go with it. But it will be done only when I'll finish my current project (at least the basics).

Ido

In Delphi the programmer has more control. Also a lot more small errors are caught compiletime.

Thanks for this insight.

I believe indeed that FPC/Lazarus is a superior technological solution, being a compiled language and having a good IDE.

Porting Delphi code to FPC/Lazarus is easier than porting it to Python.

OTOH, Python might have its strong points too (I am not sure how true these are). Maybe there are much more 'components' available for Python.

I also think there are more Python developers on linux, than FPC/Lazarus developers. This is an important factor, if you want the 'community' do a large part of the port.

Vincent

They cannot help much.

You must understand the Delphi paradigma to do this. Moreover you need Delphi to be able to see/edit the form files. All queries are in the form files. If they are in binary format: bye-bye.

Try converting a VB app to Delphi. Not easy unless you actually have VB.

So this restricts your available helpers pretty much to the people who own and know delphi. (for porting, I mean. Not talking about extensions)

Someone should point this out to them. (no time to start looking up things)

Michael.

I also think there are more Python developers on linux, than FPC/Lazarus developers. This is an important factor, if you want the 'community' do a large part of the port.

The trouble is that users are not equal.

I think there are more FPC/Delphi users on Linux that have experience with an app the size of Turbo Cash in Delphi/FPC language than the same case for Python.

The TurboCASH team has recently announced that the successfully converted their database to Firebird and MySQL.

So, now it is easier to port TurboCASH to Lazarus.

I added a section on their wiki with steps to convert the software to Lazarus. Feel free to contribute.

http://www.box.co.za/wiki/index.php/Roadmap_Linux#Programming_Environments