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Mailing lists / fpc-devel / 2008-10

Excellent work you guys have done

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Graeme Geldenhuys

Hi,

I know I sometimes bitch about some little thing in FPC or Lazarus. Well, it's not all bad. :-) I often tell other people about our company experience with FPC and Lazarus. This time I thought I would forward one such email here. Just to show you guys that we (as users) do appreciate all the efforts you guys put into these projects. Keep up the great work - CodeGear should tremble in their boots!

Earlier message 71 lines
-------- Original Message -------- Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 From: Graeme Geldenhuys ******* wrote: > We are still unsure if we ever gonna make the move to fpc/laz, we need > to invest to much time in converting our existing apps, Well, we invested in Borland since D4-D7, plus Kylix 3 Pro (and then Enterprise). We invested heavily in CLX and Borland showed us the finger. It costed us a lot of time and money! We decided long and hard (4 months of research) if Delphi or even Object Pascal was the way to go, or if we should jump ship to C/C++, C#, Java etc... We evaluated a lot of tools and languages. Luckily we stumbled across Free Pascal and then Lazarus. A familiar language and no more worrying if the company is only thinking about it's shareholders and not developers using there tools. Free Pascal and Lazarus developers work on their tools because programming is their passion. That's why we are in this line of business as well. These project are here to stay! Like I've mentioned to a few other people as well. We moved over 4 years ago, and don't have a single regret. We always have the latest compiler for free, the latest IDE for free, get much quicker fixes applied and the support is something CodeGear can only drool about (and for free). The Free Pascal compiler is absolutely great! In many respects I think it's way better than Delphi's compiler. The Lazarus community and Lazarus IDE is also pretty awesome. The IDE is easy to extend and add or amend features that are lacking. Plus, it's light on resources - so it flies on any PC. Oh, and the Lazarus Packages (*.lpk files) are heaven!! They are not nearly as feature-less as Delphi packages. Lazarus Packages are not just used for creating dll's, they are a vital part in how we develop our apps. Segmenting areas or code, has their own settings and handles unit paths for you. Yes the IDE is different to Delphi's IDE, but it was never designed to be a Delphi IDE clone. Only the LCL was designed to be a VCL clone. It's take about a week to get to know the IDE - then Delphi IDE starts feeling strange. ;-) 4 years ago, the LCL was too inconsistent between platforms. If you are only targeting a single platform, you would never have noticed any issues. We were quite picky as well and detected minor things normal users clearly never noticed - but those little things were important to out product. After a while with LCL we decided to go our own route and roll our own GUI toolkit. That was all a long time ago, and I'm sure the LCL has improved all this - their development is quite fast paced. I know the IDE has improved tremendously over the last few years. I would highly recommend any development team to set aside one developer and at least let him or her play with Lazarus and FPC for a week. Get onto the FPC and Lazarus mailing lists as ask questions! Create prototype apps that reflect your real business - no "Hello World" sh*t. Playing with Lazarus and FPC for a hour does not do it justice - *nobody* can review such a tool chain in an hour! Okay, that's my advertising done for the month! :-) I should actually write a case study or white paper on this. ;-) Graeme. -------------------------------[ end ]----------------------------- Regards, - Graeme - _______________________________________________ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/

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Michael Schnell
to Graeme Geldenhuys
do appreciate all the efforts you guys put into these projects. Keep up the great work - CodeGear should tremble in their boots!

Their latest newsletter suggests that they are going to target .Net and .Net and .Net.

While I am not really convinced that this is a bad strategy, given CIL's technical features and flexibility, the rise of Silverlight, Mono, Moonlight and even commercially originated (neither Microsoft not community based) embedded CIL frameworks, FP (at the moment) targets native code and if I would want to do a Pascal .NET project I would prefer Oxygen (former "Chrome" over Delphi.

Okay, that's my advertising done for the month! :-)

I support this, as Lazarus now finally seems to approach version 1.x :)

I do recommend Lazarus for new projects and startup-programmers. But I do recommend installing the free Turbo-Delphi in parallel (even if having to install Windows on another (virtual) PC) to take advantage of it's much better help system.

-Michael

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Graeme Geldenhuys
to Michael Schnell
Michael Schnell wrote 5 lines
Michael Schnell wrote: > > ... the rise of ... Mono ... Mono 2.0 as of yesterday :)

That's another catch-up game being played - the same as Delphi for .NET. They will ALWAYS be two steps behind Microsoft (which is also competing in the developer tools market).

Regards,
- Graeme -

_______________________________________________
fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit
http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/

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Michael Schnell
to Graeme Geldenhuys
That's another catch-up game being played - the same as Delphi for .NET. They will ALWAYS be two steps behind Microsoft (which is also competing in the developer tools market).

I don't think Microsoft is any steps ahead with a framework running on multiple platforms.

-Michael

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ik
to Michael Schnell
Michael Schnell wrote 8 lines
> That's another catch-up game being played - the same as Delphi for > .NET. They will ALWAYS be two steps behind Microsoft (which is also > competing in the developer tools market). > I don't think Microsoft is any steps ahead with a framework running on multiple platforms.

He is talking about .net imho. The problem with it is that Microsoft is the body that handles .net and adding new features to it as *they* need and require, so it means that they will always have the upper hand vs mono or CodeGear.

Show quoted text 6 lines
-Michael _______________________________________________ fpc-devel maillist - http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Ido

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Michael Schnell
to ik
He is talking about .net imho.

We are talking about CIL frameworks, one of which is .Net among several others (of course .Net is the most widely used and thus the most accounted for).

-Michael

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Graeme Geldenhuys
to ik: He is talking about .net imho. The problem with it is that Microsoft is the body that…
ik wrote 14 lines
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Michael Schnell wrote: > >> That's another catch-up game being played - the same as Delphi for >> .NET. They will ALWAYS be two steps behind Microsoft (which is also >> competing in the developer tools market). >> > > I don't think Microsoft is any steps ahead with a framework running on > multiple platforms. He is talking about .net imho. The problem with it is that Microsoft is the body that handles .net and adding new features to it as *they* need and require, so it means that they will always have the upper hand vs mono or CodeGear.

Yes, that is what I meant. Microsoft knows before anybody what will be the next *great* thing in .NET and C# language. They have the upper hand on anybody else developing tools for the .NET framework and C# language features.

Mono might beat them by allowing the .NET framework to run on multiple platforms, but Microsoft controls the features.

Regards,
- Graeme -

_______________________________________________
fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit
http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/

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Michael Schnell
to Graeme Geldenhuys
... but Microsoft controls the features.

Of course you are right that they defined what features are in each upgrade version of the CIL framework and libraries provided and the other framework constructors are likely to follow them. But for developing software that is to run in the framework, you don't need to use the features of any given upgrade. Software developed using (a development tool that supports) a given subset of the features will run on all framework implementations that (in a decent way) offer this subset. The developer is free to decide if the additional features of the current version of some CIL framework supplier's offer are interesting enough to have his product restricted to a subset of the available frameworks. (Similar: if you decently use the numerical key pad or the LPT port in your software, your product is limited to run on those PCs that offer these features.)

-Michael

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Michael Van Canneyt
to Michael Schnell
Michael Schnell wrote 15 lines
> ... but Microsoft controls the features. > Of course you are right that they defined what features are in each upgrade version of the CIL framework and libraries provided and the other framework constructors are likely to follow them. But for developing software that is to run in the framework, you don't need to use the features of any given upgrade. Software developed using (a development tool that supports) a given subset of the features will run on all framework implementations that (in a decent way) offer this subset. The developer is free to decide if the additional features of the current version of some CIL framework supplier's offer are interesting enough to have his product restricted to a subset of the available frameworks. (Similar: if you decently use the numerical key pad or the LPT port in your software, your product is limited to run on those PCs that offer these features.)

Theoretically this is correct. In practice however, the framework constructors are under a lot of pressure to provide whatever microsoft came up with or to start using new features, whether they want it or not.

In FPC, we have this pressure too, but we are free to ignore it, because we don't use FPC to make money for ourselves.

Michael.

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Michael Schnell
to Michael Van Canneyt
Show quoted text 5 lines
In practice however, the framework constructors are under a lot of pressure to provide whatever microsoft came up with or to start using new features, whether they want it or not.

In this area I feel that much of what Microsoft comes up with is not bad lately took a look at Silverlight and this seems to _finally_ provide a good way to create server based programs with a decent remote GUI that runs in a browser. Of course the Mono project started it's "Moonlight" to keep up with them.

While Microsoft's implementation of the Silverlight SDK is based in the dreadful Microsoft web server stuff, a Silverlight project (done in Visual Studio) just results in a set of files containing CIL-code (to run on the server and to run in the browser), XML-based GIU construction code. Java-code do run in the browser to manage the communication, etc. This should be usable on any web server. I consider to use it to provide a GUI to an embedded device with a deeply embedded processor.

-Michael

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Michael Van Canneyt
to Michael Schnell
Michael Schnell wrote 8 lines
> In practice however, the framework > constructors are under a lot of pressure to provide whatever microsoft > came up with or to start using new features, whether they want it or > not. > In this area I feel that much of what Microsoft comes up with is not bad ideas at all.

This highly personal and in each case is not relevant to the discussion: The pressure exists. It should not exist.

Michael.

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Lukas Gradl
to Michael Schnell: Their latest newsletter suggests that they are going to target .Net and .Net and .Net.…
I do recommend Lazarus for new projects and startup-programmers. But I

Just to second that:
A year ago, I decided to use FPC and Lazarus as main platform instead of Delphi - and I don't 's of code (mainly Server daemons without GUI) is ported successfully and works perfectly crossplatform now. Quite a few new things written including some Windows System DLL's and a multi-threading linux daemon.

At the moment I'm starting to work on the first bigger GUI-system - and it looks promising so far...

Really: Excellent work you guys have done!

Regards
Lukas

-------------------------- software security networks Lukas Gradl <fpc#ssn.at> Eduard-Bodem-Gasse 9 A - 6020 Innsbruck Tel: +43-512-214040-0 Fax: +43-512-214040-21 --------------------------

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